Diomedes writes:
Actually, children have an inherent self preservation instinct that we all share. Lying or being deceitful is a defensive reaction to the situation. Incidentally, lying in and of itself is not necessarily 'evil'. Ever heard of a white lie?
So then all that disgust with religious charlatans and marketing ploys and deceit is Okay then ? Then you have decided all that you accused Christianity of before is now deemed just defensive reaction to situations ?
So this lying of Christianity is now not necessarily "evil" ?
Why then were you judging and criticizing this behavior?
You're contradicting yourself.
Diomedes writes:
According to your scripture, god made man. Period. If man began to operate in a manner not conducive with the expectations of the designer, the designer is at fault.
According to what I read God made man and endowed man with the freedom to choose between two sources. One was God Himself represented in
"the tree of life" and the other was God's enemy represented in
"the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
Man was not created evil. Man was created neutral and free between the two choices. Adam was innocent and neutral.
After your "period" of God making man we have God also warning the man. We have God commanding the man as to which source of living he should NOT choose.
quote:
" And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely; But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shalll surely die." (Genesis 2:16,17)
So God made man a innocent and neutral free man between two choices.
Your attempt to blame the Creator is just an extension of the excuses offered by Adam's wife first and then by Adam. The wrong
choice of their will was because of the
fault of someone other than themselves.
I am a software engineer. If I write a piece of code that malfunctions, I don't blame the code.
I was a computer programmer for about 30 years myself. And the analogy is not proper.
Man was a living soul not a lifeless piece of software. And man had a choice out from his free will. He chose against what God had warned him.
I believe that above you alluded to
Ephesians 3:9,10, however in your own words. Basically, when I asked you about the eternal purpose of God you alluded briefly to this concept of Paul -
quote:
" And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things,
In order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifaroius wisdom of God might be made known through the church." (Eph. 3:9,10)
The wrong choice of the first head of humanity, Adam, is only the beginning of the record. The following chapters of the whole Bible are a display of God's multifarious wisdom unfolding to bring salvation to this man and his world.
So we have:
1.) God created
2.) Satan corrupted and destroyed in conjunction with man's poor choice.
3.) God operates to save the fallen man and his world.
The software analogy is limited and inadequate in that it cannot replicate a living creature with freedom of will to go God's way or go another way not of God.
To the answer set forth by the individuals peddling the gimmick. A gimmick that states you are broken and you need me to fix you.
Actually God placed man before the tree of life, which has to signify taking God into man as divine life. This was God's purpose quite apart from man being "broken."
Had Adam not sinned, he still, to fulfill the ultimate meaning of his creation, would have had to take in the fruit of the tree of life. He still was in need to receive God Himself as divine life.
Had Adam not sinned and remained
"very good" as a neutral creation, not particularly needing to be "fixed" as you say, he still was before God Himself to choose life divine.
Now, arguments about free-will and predestination have gone back and forth for centuries. And if you wish to blame God that any enemy of God was there to distract him in the first place, go ahead.
That is a deep philosophical speculation which I don't think anyone has been able to resolve. In the meantime it offers flimsy excuse some of us [not] to cooperate with receiving God in Christ for salvation.
Basically, you are objecting that man should not have had a choice.
Basically, you are faulting God for not creating a robot rather than a living soul.
Diomedes writes:
Jesus of Nazareth is the Bronze Age ? I may have to get familiar with the scope of the Bronze Age.
Would you prefer early Iron Age? Although to be fair, they overlapped and bronze was still heavily used in the time of jesus.
I would prefer regarding it as mostly irrelevant. Jesus in any age is glorious in His expression of divine humanity.
Whatever age it was and whatever ages may follow the modern age - Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.
Bornze Age, Iron Age, Dark Ages, Industrial Age, Atomic Age, Information Age, or whatever age is to come, Jesus Christ has the highest name, not only in this age but in that which is to come.
Spider-man does not regard the Green Goblin as fiction. I guess if its good enough for Spider-man, its good enough for all of us.
Speaking of gimmicks. It appears that you really have not much to contribute to this discussion. It appears that your only involvement was initiated to stop me from writing anything.
Why not go and read your Spider-man comics ?
You never told me where Shire was and what archeological explorations have occured there. So I will not ask you anything about a comic book character.
You're not clever. You talk as one in a drunken stupor of modern day juvenile entertainment. You appear not to have the clarity of thought to discern between one Christ whom the human race has divided history in the West with
B.C. and
A.D. and a comic book character designed purely to entertain kids (or adult kids).
The word 'justified' is the keyword. Fear of heights. Legitimate. Fear of a car crash. Logical. Fear of eternal damnation for picking the wrong religion: laughable.
This is the thought of some that God is not perfect in righteousness but maybe just so good.
If you ask all the rapists what the penalty for rape should be, maybe they would get together and vote that there should be no penalty at all. Or maybe they would vote that there should be only a light penalty. Perhaps to be sent to bed without desert.
The people who have committed the crime of rape have a vested interest in letting themselves off the hook as to a just recompense.
God incarnate as a man to shed His blood for the redemption of our sins against God. All we sinners have a vested interest in imagining that such a offense of rejecting Christ should not be serious. But we are not in a position to be trusted to know what penalty is appropriate for such an offense as rejecting God.
God will not give up His eternal and perfect righteousness.
But God also loves the sinner and does not want to judge without mercy.
The cross of Christ is where God's righteousness is manifested at the same time as God's great love. Man needs to be saved from not being reconciled to God.
You may deem that not being reconciled to God is no big deal. But God determines that not being reconciled to God will be a situation that no creature will have and win. He must lose. That is God's responsibility as the ground of being and the ultimate Governor of all existence.
But you are still free to reject Him if you really don't want to be reconciled to this Savior God.
jaywill:
Besides, the fear of God has kept me back from untold number of incidents in which I could have done something really evil. Because I love God and also fear that I cannot conceal from Him anything, the fear of God held me back from evil doing many times.
And I was quite thankful for the fear of God.
The fear of God is the respect for God's perfect holiness, ultimate righteousness, and His omnipresent awareness and infallible memory of all that I do.
You just self-contradicted yourself in those statements.
No I am not. I can simultaneously enjoy God and have a healthy fear of God also. I can stand in awe of God. And I can adore God too. In the heat of the tempter's temptation I can flee into God's presence and be empowered to escape my own lust. And in fleeing into God fear the consequences of unrighteousness too.
You have no case there. And other than attempt to stop me from writing in this Bible Study, I really don't see why else you are participating.
But we forgiven sinners have boldness to approach God.
We see that He is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us for the sake of Christ.
We boldly approach the throne of grace. And we enjoy the inseparable love of God in Christ which is ours. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. And our judgment for eternity has already been accomplished on the cross of Christ.
Our fearsome day of eternal judgment was on Calvary.
Had you really touched God when you were supposedly learning all these things you would have known this also.
Did you ever hear the expression -
"Always learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth" ? (2 Timothy 3:7)
Perhaps you simply never touched Christ in your innermost being. Perhaps God as a living One was never real to you. Maybe now is the time for you to receive the Holy Spirit - Jesus in His pneumatic form, and be born from above.
At a certain point the Triune God did become very real to me.
And it was not a matter of "choosing the right religion" but of receiving a living Person - Jesus. When I called on Jesus God immediately became real to me. And God has been a reality to me ever since.
And for the record, if it is only the fear of eternal damnation that keeps you in line, that is actually what is truly frightening.
The problem of eternal damnation was solved for me 2,000 plus years ago on Calvary. I was judged eternally there in the Son of God on His cross. It is not that God has overlooked my sins. It is that God
judged them on Calvary in Jesus. Jesus has gone through damnation on my behalf and on yours.
I do fear not being transformed into His image for the millennial kingdom. But I do not fear eternal punishment because that matter was settled on Calvary on the cross of Jesus.
Didn't you know that ?
I refer you to some words of John Wesley's (?) hymn on eternal redemption -
Why should I worry, doubt and fear?
Has God not caused His Son to bear
My sins upon the tree?
The dept that Christ for me has paid,
Would God another mind have made
To claim again from me?
Redemption full the Lord has made,
And all my debts has fully paid,
From law to set me free.
I fear not for the wrath of God,
For I've been sprinkled with His blood,
It wholly covers me.
For me forgiveness He has gained,
And full acquittal was obtained,
All debts of sin are paid;
God would not have His claim on two,
First on His Son, my Surety true,
And then upon me laid.
So now I have full peace and rest,
My Savior Christ hath done the best
And set me wholly free;
By His all-efficacious blood
I ne'er could be condemned by God,
For He has died for me!
[Hymn 1003, Living Stream Ministry Hymns]
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
™ Version 4.2
(1)