Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?

governed by his providence, not initiated by him. The counsels and actions of men are originated by men.The malice of Satan and all the wicked are theirs, God directs it to whatever end he pleases.Again you treat terms like governs, excites, rules, as if they meant originates. He steers us, but we have the inclinations ourselves.He uses the inclinations of people as his instruments. The inclinations are already there in the created being.We conceive things in our minds, God directs them.You are the one saying God originates the thoughts, Calvin isn't. So far you haven't quoted one thing from Calivin that says that, it's all about God governing and directing what is already naturally there.Why are you having so much trouble understanding the meaning of these quotes?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Calvin says God directed the occurrence of the Fall, he doesn't say God put the ideas in our heads. So far quote after quote after quote says only that God governs or rules or directs what is already there, never says He originated it.

But they can't do anything unless He wills it, directs it, etc.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No, you are experiencing a problem reading or you haven't bothered to read the thread. The ideas are conceived by us, their execution is allowed or disallowed, organized, arranged, directed, governed, etc. by God.

Fortunately salvation doesn't depend on Calvin's theology being correct, I just hate the way you all treat him. He's one of the greatest theologians according to the best preachers out there and you treat him like dirt the way you treat true believers in general like dirt and even treat God like dirt.But again nothing crucial is riding on his theology and I'm tired of arguing it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You defame him by accusing him of arguments that make God evil. Which is caused by your not understanding his arguments though you so arrogantly think you do, think you understand them better than Calvinists and better than Calvin himself.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

To think that such an educated man as Calvin would be subjected to such ignorance rather takes the breath away.

Poor Calvin. Poor reality. Poor history. Poor knowledge. Poor sanity.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Because our thoughts are full of sin and God can't sin.Calvin is completely scriptural and I may not have the best grasp of all his arguments but I do know that when somebody starts claiming anything he said supports sin in God they're off the track. If they think it's right there in his quotes they are misreading his quotes even if to them it looks open and shut, and I believe Dr. A. has been doing that all along. The idea that Calvin, who was more Biblically astute than most, wouldn't have noticed such implications in his writing is nuts, beyond nuts.If I ever get into studying it further I'll come back and try to do a better job. On the other hand I don't know that I did a bad job this time.

Good grief I would have thought this much would be clear by now. The arguments have over and over tried to prove that Calvin supported a view of God that scripture contradicts and that is simply absolutely impossible. Calvin is taught in seminaries and churches as the most biblical of theologians, there is nothing anybody here could say that would prove otherwise. You are misreading him in some sense. Your claim that his quotes themselves say this is simply wrong. Thousands of knowledgeable theologians and preachers know what he said and if he'd said any such thing they wouldn't be Calvinists themselves. The amazing arrogance of a bunch of anti-Christians to tell Christians what a great theologian *really* meant is stupefying. I've answered this so many times I'm certain you all can't read.DIRECTS men's counsels, EXCITES their wills, REGULATES their efforts as he pleases but nothing in this quote says he originates the counsels or their wills or their efforts themselves, He just MOVES them as He pleases. The counsels, the contents of their wills and their efforts are already there.If Calvin says anywhere that God actually determines the content of our thoughts this has not been shown by anyone. The quotes all describe Him directing what is already there. And I've said this so many times my fingers are going numb writing it. First, again, none of the quotes imply that God originates the sinful thoughts.But if any of it is supposed to be understood as His determining the content of our thoughts, which you all claim but is not actually evidenced by your quotes, then I'd have to see how Calvin understands that God could do that and not sin Himself, which of course he'd have to argue because he's biblical and scripture says God can't sin.The cavalier way you all think Calvin could support sin in God Himself when he's known as the most Biblical of theologians is a monumental error.You are committing a version of Vulgar Calvinism.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Calvinism cannot say that God sins. Period. You are nuts to try to make that case.

More of the same idiocy.

YOU deduce from Calvin's words that God sins because you believe he's saying God directly ordained sinful inclinations, and I keep answering you that that's not how I read your quotes, which are about how God directs and shapes the inclinations that are already there. That's how I read it.But maybe some time I'll read up on whatever is said on this subject by people who know something.

But so far none of the quotes I've seen say that. The inclination was already present, something to do with the nature of things, and God directed it. That's what I keep seeing.But if what you are saying is correct and Calvinists see it that way I'll have to find it out later, from those who have studied this more thoroughly.But there's going to have to be some other way of resolving it than the Arminians' way because that just makes God weak.

I read Calvin years ago. I had some problems with him but not this particular problem. But the advice not to listen to preachers is very wrong. They were given to us to make up for our own lack of gifting in understanding these things. And it is always safer to learn from many teachers rather than confine yourself to your own abilities, or even just to one or two teachers. A good case could be made that you, for instance, went so far off the track from trusting your own reading of the Bible that you are now lost in deep jungle from which you may never return.