Is it time to consider compulsory vaccinations?

The right of way is not fictitious. If we have a right to be where we are this changes the burden of responsibility for any nasty things that may happen when we are there. Assuming that we have the right to exist we shouldn't be held responsible for bad things that happen simply because we exist. Refusing vaccination is not like running the red light and more like proceeding on the green without double checking.I think that vaccination is a clever trick and should be employed but I, almost completely, disagree with making it mandatory. I am willing to jeopardize my own health to some degree in order to preserve a person's right to self determination. I think that the dangers of relinquishing that right are far greater than those presented by infectious disease.It is an interesting philosophical question. If society creates a benefit that I can not avoid (like herd immunity) am I then obligated to participate in it's continuation?

So your real answer is yes we are obligated to participate. It is all or nothing.

So those of us who do not use the bus should be fed to the lions? Seems a little severe.If I support the idea of a police department is it antisocial to reject the idea of unlimited use of force to enforce the law?When autonomous cars become available will I be irresponsible if I chose to continue driving myself?

Sure it could be but after it is established then it is no longer arbitrary. If you have the green then you have the right of way and anybody else who is there is in the wrong.Even so, I counsel my children that having the right of way will not necessarily stop a cement truck so make sure you look first. It wont matter that everyone agrees that you had the right of way when they are scraping you off of the pavement. You mean like religion or a belief in unfettered capitalism? What about working the night shift? These are dangerous legal things that people do by choice. What about unprotected sex? Should that be illegal? we don't charge people for spreading stds if they are unaware that they are doing it. We are in agreement there. So has society failed at convincing these people to make the right decision or does the fault rest solely with the individual? So being born a Canadian obligates me to support everything that Canada does?

We do and have been for hundreds of thousands of yrs. Injecting it into newborns is a more recent development. Is it really crazy to think that there may be some difference between the two? Perhaps it is mentioned in the actual study that the review paper refers to. I can't get at it. In any case, you are suggesting that all of these guys are a bunch of scare mongering quacks too? Christ, they are everywhere.

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Joachim Mutter*, Johannes Naumann*, Rainer Schneider*
1
, Harald Walach*
1,2
& Boyd Haley
3
* Institute for Environmental Medicine and Hospit
al Epidemiology, University Hospital Freiburg,
Germany
1
Samueli Institute, European Office, Freiburg, Germany
2
School of Social Sciences, University of Northampton, United Kingdom
3
Department of Chemistry, Lexington, University of Kentucky, USA

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I quoted it because it seemed to be in opposition to what you claimed about mercury excretion. As is likely very obvious I do not really know what all of this stuff means but how many 6 month old babies are eating tuna from a can or would otherwise be exposed to these levels in their first yr of life?As I gain an appreciation for the sheer magnitude of things that I do not understand about the issue I begin to see the futility of even trying. I do understand that we often see what we want to see and I think that this applies to all of us to some degree. Certainly it is less for those who employ the scientific method but I don't think that it is completely absent.I have made an honest effort in this thread to take a position that I do not actually hold. I think that we should continue to promote vaccination but I also think that we have a lot more to learn about it. I think that there is a real danger in thinking that we fully understand anything.

I was trying to get away from arguing the science with you as it is like bringing a spoon to a gun fight but this statement doesn't seem right. Without looking at who said the following would you say that these people are also a bunch of quacks?

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The health effects of elemental mercury depend on the length and type of exposure. For example, if you were to accidentally swallow liquid elemental mercury from a broken fever thermometer, little mercury would be absorbed. However, if you were to inhale the vapour from that mercury spill, it would be more easily absorbed into your body, potentially causing health problems.

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This seems to indicate that eating some amount of mercury would have a different effect than injecting that same amount. Anyway, if I wanted to get a grasp on what we know about mercury poisoning which studies would you refer me to?

What other reason is there?

It is interesting how many of those who support vaccination would refuse making it compulsory. There is something else here that we perceive as being more important.How do you think we could apply that pressure? Something like a speeding ticket or more like a luxury tax or something else altogether? Send them all to Somalia for a week or two?

It is still a question of rights. You are just ignoring it.I argue that whatever right it is that allows us to accept vaccination is the same right that allows us to refuse them. Just because you may be right about the issue it doesn't give you the right to insist that everyone else also be right. Right?

Insurance isn't a bad idea but economic pressure does not press evenly upon the people. OK say we swallow that bitter pill and make the program compulsory. Should that include the flu shot or one for diabetes in a few yrs. Say we lick the common cold that costs us a fortune. How long before it becomes a purely economic argument and then how long before we just put it in the water?I know that it sounds paranoid but who here would deny the power of little changes and a bit of time? Add in some uncertainty and a bunch of complexity and voila, a recipe for disaster. Would it be fair to bring up our track record for the introduction of foreign species for biological control like the Cane toad or the Mosquitofish. Seemed like a good idea at the time.Another thing that bugs me a bit is that if we look at the autism rates. From something like 1 in 5000 in 1976 to 1 in 50 today.>>>>We don't know what is causing that. <<<<How much would you bet that the cause is environmental (abe: I should have included life style)? Who or what is most likely responsible for the changes in our environment since just prior to 1976? Something in our environment that we all think is safe is quite probably not safe and we are quite probably responsible for putting it there. Changes to our environment that are as extreme and wide spread as the uptake of vaccination are rightfully considered possible candidates.As usual you make some really good points with eloquence but I am not so sure that refusing to accept every vaccine that we can create is entirely absurd. Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.Edited by ProtoTypical, : spelling and stuff

Quarantine is not a bad idea at all. In fact it is the ideal solution. Rejecting it because of technical difficulties is defeatist. We need toilets that can monitor for threats and lock the doors.

No not at all. I only meant it as a compliment. Mostly because the facts won't allow me to make any well substantiated argument against the immediate benefits of vaccination so I have to rely on doubt and conjecture about the murky future. Oh come on let me stay please. I'll help pay for your ill conceived plans of universal healthiness and provide control data for safety studies. My nebulous concerns do rest on the fact that society manages to fuck up a lot of things with the greatest of confidence. I fully agree that this is no reason not to press on but I wonder what we miss because we have decided that there is only one course. Things like spontaneous remission of cancer possibly brought on by an immune response to other infections.

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Could infection be the key to stimulating spontaneous remission more generally? Analyses of the recent evidence certainly make a compelling case for exploring the idea. Rashidi and Fisher’s study found that 90% of the patients recovering from leukaemia had suffered another illness such as pneumonia shortly before the cancer disappeared. Other papers have noted tumours vanishing after diphtheria, gonorrhoea, hepatitis, influenza, malaria, measles, smallpox and syphilis. What doesn’t kill you really can make you stronger in these strange circumstances.

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Cancer: The mysterious miracle cases inspiring doctors - BBC FutureI guess the point I feel strongest about is that systems that have come to a point of balance after a billion yrs are tricky to fiddle with. Gains in one area always come at a cost to some other.Somehow I think that I would rather tolerate the risk of disease over the risk of allowing other people to make my risk judgements for me without retaining veto authority. I usually go looking for the official assessment but I occasionally find myself in opposition to an official assessment of risk.(By the way, I was expecting a scathing rebuke for even suggesting that you might be defeatist.)

I am highly sceptical about the numbers yes. Not just for vaccination related problems but for recognized medical blunders in general. We have personally had two incidences of medical kloosterfuken that nearly killed someone. One was a late administration of opiates during delivery and another was a missed diagnosis of an obstructed bowel. I doubt that either one made it onto a list of mistakes made. We have also had less severe mistakes of improper prescriptions and my father had the wrong lens put in his eye. So I think that mistakes and problems happen a lot more often than we care to admit and I raised the issue up thread without many replies.What do the numbers say about our drug policy? How many people have we killed or lives have we ruined because smoking grass is illegal? How many junkies have died because they couldn't get a clean needle? Where are those numbers? How many have we killed with our response to the threat of terrorism?I do question numbers like the 500,000 deaths attributed to measles every yr. How many of these are dying from a lack of basic medical attention and nutrition? If 40 million Americans contracted the measles would 500k of them die?I do not dispute the fact that vaccination has saved millions of lives. I do claim personal sovereignty and I am not sure that I relinquish it in any case ever. I don't send my kids to school because it is the law to do so. I send them because I think that it is the right thing to do. Certainly I can be coerced by the law and it changes my cost/benefit calculations. Were I to blatantly defy a governmental edict it would likely be in the shape of civil disobedience. Not only do I consider it a personal right to follow my conscience but also a civic duty.To be clear, I might not stand in front of the police station and smoke a joint but when I was arrested for growing it in my back yard I spent thousands of $ to defend my right to do so and was vindicated. Slowly society begins to see their error and only because people refuse the conventional wisdom and defy the law. This is the engine of progress and it almost never comes from the top down.

I have to say that the more that I think about the idea of forced vaccination the more it bothers me. Were it entirely up to me, my children would have been vaccinated long ago and they likely will be soon. But if someone tried to tell me that I had to do it I would deny their right to do so with every ounce of my ability. It is not compatible with the idea of a free society. We can fine the speeders but we have to let them speed first. On balance that is the way that I see it but I see plenty of reason for doubt.My kids are not allowed to touch their friends at school. I don't think that I would ask that no one touch anybody because my kid was bullied or something. They can't throw snowballs and no peanuts. I wouldn't ask for those restrictions either if my kid had suffered from that behaviour or condition. There is a camera at every corner and I have to buzz in to bring their forgotten lunch. WTF?I tried to get a bus locator installed on their bus so they wouldn't have to stand out in the —20C for so long if the bus was late which it often is. I was told that it would be a safety hazard if just anybody could locate the bus electronically. Yes the big yellow bus that comes everyday. We are afraid of our own shadows and are being led around by fear, statistics, averages and the lowest common denominator. We are on a mad rush to eliminate every conceivable threat that can be spotted on a spread sheet.

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Mother's gonna make all your nightmares come true.
Mother's gonna put all her fears into you.

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Fuck that. You decide what you want to be afraid of and I'll do the same. If you want to change my mind then work on that.

Society is the thing created when our individual needs and opinions match those of other individuals and a natural society is formed only when the individual members recognize the benefit of belonging to it. Unnatural and unsustainable societies are formed when individuals are forced against their will to participate.Of course some pressure can and needs to be applied but there is a cost to the use of coercion that accumulates unseen. What pressure would accumulate if there were no exemption from vaccination policy? Consider the enforcement of a vaccination program that you disagreed with.

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Public Choice gets the short shrift from most books and courses, to the detriment of all. Students can get a richer understanding of their world if we don't treat the state as a deus ex machina and instead seek to understand it as an organization comprised of people with their own goals, incentives, and bits and pieces of information.

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The Use of Force in Society: Defining The State in Introductory Economics - EconlibWhere does the strength and success of our free society come from? I see that it comes from the free part and the variety of unpredictable paths that come with that freedom.I think that forcing vaccination is a much greater infringement on personal liberty than is being recognized here.