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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 508 (772450)
11-14-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:16 AM


Faith writes:
We must pretend these are truly refugees and give up everything for them....
Our new government is looking at incoming refugees as an opportunity, not a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 508 (772524)
11-15-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
11-14-2015 1:20 PM


Faith writes:
Opportunity for what?
My grandparents were immigrants. Why wouldn't any newcomers contribute as much as they did?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 74 of 508 (772526)
11-15-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
11-15-2015 11:42 AM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
I'm neither young nor Muslim but I believe suicide bombings are as justifiable as bombing Muslims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 11:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 1:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 82 of 508 (772534)
11-15-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Coyote
11-15-2015 1:30 PM


Re: A Few Details
Coyote writes:
"Bombing muslims" is a false dichotomy as the targets are military or fighters. The intent is not to target civilians.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Why is it that "Oops!" is an excuse when their civilians get killed? When there is no collateral damage, you can have the high ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 508 (772535)
11-15-2015 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
11-15-2015 1:30 PM


Faith writes:
Spoken like a true multiculturalist.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 508 (772536)
11-15-2015 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
11-15-2015 1:37 PM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
Do you also believe that the motives for both actions are equivalent?
I'm not responsible for somebody else's motives. As far as I'm concerned, killing people is killing people and it's hard to distinguish one killer from another. If you're going to bomb the bombers, you might as well have capital punishment too. Then we're no better than they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 1:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 2:11 PM ringo has replied
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-15-2015 2:28 PM ringo has replied
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 3:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 508 (772539)
11-15-2015 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Coyote
11-15-2015 2:11 PM


Re: A Few Details
Coyote writes:
A suicide bomber seeks to kill and main as many innocents as possible.
If you can't tell the difference perhaps you should seek to understand why.
Dead is dead. If you see a difference between one corpse and another, perhaps you should seek to explain why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 2:11 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 508 (772540)
11-15-2015 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dr Adequate
11-15-2015 2:28 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
There's also a moral distinction between capital punishment and the police shooting someone who's on a shooting spree.
That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about police going into the ghetto to shoot accused criminals without a trial.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-15-2015 2:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-15-2015 3:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 508 (772572)
11-16-2015 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
11-15-2015 3:02 PM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
The killing of Jews in WW2 has the same moral equivalence as those that killed to liberate them?
The fire raid on Dresden was the moral equivalent of the Holocaust. From there, it's a sliding scale all the way to lily-white, peachy-keen, hugging-bunnies-and-kittens killing.
Tangle writes:
In international law, it's illegal to kill without trial for retributive reasons (punishment), the legal justification for the killing of the John character was defence.
You can't defend yourself against Jihad John or Osama Bin Laden by killing their followers. That just creates more of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 3:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 94 of 508 (772573)
11-16-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Adequate
11-15-2015 3:13 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
As Tangle points out, this isn't retributive, it's not like ISIS has stopped killing people and now we're dealing out rough justice. They're still going about killing people, it's a crime in progress, one long killing spree.
They are indeed still killing people. Your "defensive" measures aren't working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-15-2015 3:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2015 10:52 AM ringo has replied
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 508 (772578)
11-16-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Tangle
11-16-2015 10:52 AM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
Your "defensive" measures aren't working.
Which is, of course, a different argument.
The first was about legitimacy and it's widely accepted that self-defence is legitimate, the second is about effectiveness.
Pardon me for having two reasons for not killing people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2015 10:52 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 508 (772590)
11-16-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dr Adequate
11-16-2015 12:09 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
If a whole bunch of ... let us say white supremacists ... invade a shopping mall and start shooting, then at the point at which the police have taken down two of them and the rest are still shooting, do the police need to consider a different tactic such as holding up a sign saying "WE SURRENDER"? --- because they are still killing people, so the measures taken by the police aren't working?
The police should put down their signs that say, "Join the White Supremacists".
Dr Adequate writes:
(and there is no way to stop them except by force, because carefully reasoned polite argument hasn't worked)
On the contrary, the way to stop them is by carefully reasoned polite argument directed at the people who are thinking of joining them. It's force that isn't working. It's just creating more of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:09 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 107 by Diomedes, posted 11-16-2015 2:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 134 of 508 (772643)
11-17-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dr Adequate
11-16-2015 12:48 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
That does not correspond to anything in the analogy, since U.S. propaganda does not encourage people to join ISIS.
Sure it does. Your entire foreign policy is a recruiting poster for terrorists.
Dr Adequate writes:
They will stop when we win.
You can't win by recruiting more of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 149 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 508 (772644)
11-17-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Diomedes
11-16-2015 2:05 PM


Re: A Few Details
Diomedes writes:
Despite all the Boogeyman notions of ISIS, they are a fighting force of approximately 20,000-30,000 fighters driving Toyoto pickup trucks. Turkey's army alone stands at 1 million strong and has advanced military hardware.
Remember Vietnam? The Americans were using 4 million dollar jet aircraft to blow up 400 dollar bamboo bridges. The next night the bridges were rebuilt but the downed aircraft and their pilots took a lot longer to replace. The Viet Cong were using bicycles to bring supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Try catching a bicycle in the jungle at night.
Appropriate technology tends to trump expensive technology.
Unfortunately, the Middle Eastern nations are following the bad example of the US. Bombing people back to the Stone Age doesn't work when they're already too close to the Stone Age.
Diomedes writes:
But as stated before, without the paradigm shift in how radical Islam is being allowed to thrive and more efforts within the Muslim committee on curbing it at its source, we won't achieve long standing results.
"We" won't achieve long standing results, period. They have to solve their own problems. When we meddle in their problems, they tend to spill over into our back yard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Diomedes, posted 11-16-2015 2:05 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Diomedes, posted 11-17-2015 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 508 (772645)
11-17-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon
11-17-2015 5:47 AM


Re: A Few Details
Jon writes:
The ones committing these acts are not poor and beaten down. They are almost all Muslim immigrants to the West who have lived well in the lap of Western success, many having advanced educations and a good deal of money.
It isn't unusual for people with education and money to want to help their brethren who are poor and beaten down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

  
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