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Author | Topic: Another one that hurts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Our new government is looking at incoming refugees as an opportunity, not a problem.
We must pretend these are truly refugees and give up everything for them....
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
My grandparents were immigrants. Why wouldn't any newcomers contribute as much as they did?
Opportunity for what?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I'm neither young nor Muslim but I believe suicide bombings are as justifiable as bombing Muslims.
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Coyote writes:
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Why is it that "Oops!" is an excuse when their civilians get killed? When there is no collateral damage, you can have the high ground.
"Bombing muslims" is a false dichotomy as the targets are military or fighters. The intent is not to target civilians.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Thank you.
Spoken like a true multiculturalist.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I'm not responsible for somebody else's motives. As far as I'm concerned, killing people is killing people and it's hard to distinguish one killer from another. If you're going to bomb the bombers, you might as well have capital punishment too. Then we're no better than they are.
Do you also believe that the motives for both actions are equivalent?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Coyote writes:
Dead is dead. If you see a difference between one corpse and another, perhaps you should seek to explain why.
A suicide bomber seeks to kill and main as many innocents as possible.If you can't tell the difference perhaps you should seek to understand why.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about police going into the ghetto to shoot accused criminals without a trial. There's also a moral distinction between capital punishment and the police shooting someone who's on a shooting spree. Edited by ringo, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
The fire raid on Dresden was the moral equivalent of the Holocaust. From there, it's a sliding scale all the way to lily-white, peachy-keen, hugging-bunnies-and-kittens killing.
The killing of Jews in WW2 has the same moral equivalence as those that killed to liberate them? Tangle writes:
You can't defend yourself against Jihad John or Osama Bin Laden by killing their followers. That just creates more of them.
In international law, it's illegal to kill without trial for retributive reasons (punishment), the legal justification for the killing of the John character was defence.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
They are indeed still killing people. Your "defensive" measures aren't working.
As Tangle points out, this isn't retributive, it's not like ISIS has stopped killing people and now we're dealing out rough justice. They're still going about killing people, it's a crime in progress, one long killing spree.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Pardon me for having two reasons for not killing people.
ringo writes:
Which is, of course, a different argument. Your "defensive" measures aren't working. The first was about legitimacy and it's widely accepted that self-defence is legitimate, the second is about effectiveness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
The police should put down their signs that say, "Join the White Supremacists".
If a whole bunch of ... let us say white supremacists ... invade a shopping mall and start shooting, then at the point at which the police have taken down two of them and the rest are still shooting, do the police need to consider a different tactic such as holding up a sign saying "WE SURRENDER"? --- because they are still killing people, so the measures taken by the police aren't working? Dr Adequate writes:
On the contrary, the way to stop them is by carefully reasoned polite argument directed at the people who are thinking of joining them. It's force that isn't working. It's just creating more of them.
(and there is no way to stop them except by force, because carefully reasoned polite argument hasn't worked)
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dr Adequate writes:
Sure it does. Your entire foreign policy is a recruiting poster for terrorists.
That does not correspond to anything in the analogy, since U.S. propaganda does not encourage people to join ISIS. Dr Adequate writes:
You can't win by recruiting more of them.
They will stop when we win.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Diomedes writes:
Remember Vietnam? The Americans were using 4 million dollar jet aircraft to blow up 400 dollar bamboo bridges. The next night the bridges were rebuilt but the downed aircraft and their pilots took a lot longer to replace. The Viet Cong were using bicycles to bring supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Try catching a bicycle in the jungle at night.
Despite all the Boogeyman notions of ISIS, they are a fighting force of approximately 20,000-30,000 fighters driving Toyoto pickup trucks. Turkey's army alone stands at 1 million strong and has advanced military hardware. Appropriate technology tends to trump expensive technology. Unfortunately, the Middle Eastern nations are following the bad example of the US. Bombing people back to the Stone Age doesn't work when they're already too close to the Stone Age.
Diomedes writes:
"We" won't achieve long standing results, period. They have to solve their own problems. When we meddle in their problems, they tend to spill over into our back yard.
But as stated before, without the paradigm shift in how radical Islam is being allowed to thrive and more efforts within the Muslim committee on curbing it at its source, we won't achieve long standing results.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
It isn't unusual for people with education and money to want to help their brethren who are poor and beaten down.
The ones committing these acts are not poor and beaten down. They are almost all Muslim immigrants to the West who have lived well in the lap of Western success, many having advanced educations and a good deal of money.
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