Another one that hurts

`Hey Xong,I'm not sure why you need to ask me as I've been pretty outspoken about this for the last seven(?) years. Besides my replies to Strag, I've always denounced the use of drones, for all purposes.1. It is counter-productive: the innocent deaths it causes creates more "terrorists" from its surviving friends and families. That the US actually uses them to target weddings and funerals causes me to be deeply embarrassed of my country and the servicemen.The US military/Obama knows drones are counter-productive, but uses them anyway:

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"Civilian casualties were likely to be far higher than had been acknowledged, he said."

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US drone attacks 'counter-productive', former Obama security adviser claims
US drone attacks 'counter-productive', former Obama security adviser claims | Drones (military) | The Guardian

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It's a certain kind of monster who denounces others' terrorism but embraces their own.2. Hugely hypocritical: If another country targeted one of our criminal politicians and "accidentally" caused the deaths of your family and friends, would you be angry? How would the US' respond? Do I need to ask? When a single child is exposed to something cruelly traumatic, it can take a lifetime of professional counseling with positive support systems to overcome. When the US/UK illegally and immorally invaded Iraq on lies, we created about THREE MILLION highly traumatized and angry orphans. There is no positive support system in Iraq, no jobs, no education, no health care, no counselors, no remaining friends or family . . . just the support and REINFORCEMENT of millions of other highly angry civilians whom the US/UK targeted. And unlike other countries that the US invaded: weapons. Lots and lots and lots of american-made, top-quality weapons. The US/UK has taken every reason to live a fruitful and happy life from the Iraqis. That leaves them with the only reason for living: to avenge their position in life, and to hope to be able to lord over someone else (A typical response of those who have been victimized/traumatized). If american christians were put in that position, nearly all of them would also pervert the magical qualities of their bible to avenge their violators, just like the Iraqis are perverting their religion.I doubt there is anything that will stop the monster that the US and UK created. But it seems to me we can at least go forward by doing no more harm . . .

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We must ask ourselves why lethal weapons sold to those who are planning to cause much suffering to individuals and society? Unfortunately, the answer is, as we all know — it’s just money. Money, drenched in blood, and often innocent blood.

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Pope Francis

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But, it seems most people prefer using more bombs. Alas, it's been so effective in the past.

Hi Mod, Sorry Mod, I think this might be unknowable. Unfortunately, I have yet to read any source with all inclusive numbers. This is too complex for me to give bestimates.ISIS is getting funding from, but I don't know the percentages:
1. contributions from public and private Saudi Arabia, and other gulf states (Qatar, Kuwait) often in secret money-laundrying (see Kuwait links below)
2. military funding/weapons from UK/US to Saudi to ISIS
3. oil selling/smuggling
4. stealing bank deposits in North Iraq
5. ???If I come across a future source, I'll post the info here. Until then, perhaps these links can help give an outline of the problem:From my previous posts:

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UK training Saudi forces used to crush Arab spring
UK training Saudi forces used to crush Arab spring | Saudi Arabia | The Guardian

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Saudis’ UK-made war jets outnumber RAF’s
Saudis’ UK-made war jets outnumber RAF’s

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Britain urged to stop providing weapons to Saudi Arabia
Amnesty calls for suspension of arms transfers as group says it has evidence of war crimes in Yemen conflict
Britain urged to stop providing weapons to Saudi Arabia | Arms trade | The Guardian

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Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country
Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country | The Independent | The Independent

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Maybe some of these articles will help. I cut and paste the most germane points, but again, this is too complex for me to adequately express in a forum, sorry . . .

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To really combat terror, end support for Saudi Arabia

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While there is no evidence to suggest Qatar’s regime is directly funding Isis, powerful private individuals within the state certainly are, and arms intended for other jihadi groups are likely to have fallen into their hands. According to a secret memo signed by Hillary Clinton, released by Wikileaks, Qatar has the worst record of counter-terrorism cooperation with the US.

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And yet, where are the western demands for Qatar to stop funding international terrorism or being complicit in the rise of jihadi groups? Instead, Britain arms Qatar’s dictatorship, selling it millions of pounds worth of weaponry including crowd-control ammunition and missile parts.

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There are other reasons for Britain to keep stumm, too. Qatar owns lucrative chunks of Britain such as the Shard, a big portion of Sainsbury’s and a slice of the London Stock Exchange.

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To really combat terror, end support for Saudi Arabia | Owen Jones | The Guardian

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ISIS Is Likely Receiving Funding From People Living In Countries Allied With The US

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But again, don’t expect Britain to act.Our alliance with the regime dates back to 1915, and Saudi Arabia is the British arms industry’s biggest market, receiving 1.6bn of military exports. There are now more than 200 joint ventures between UK and Saudi companies worth $17.5bn.

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Over the last two and a half years, Kuwait has emerged as a financing and organizational hub for charities and individuals supporting Syria’s myriad rebel groups," the report said, adding thatmoney from donors in other gulf nations is collected in Kuwait before traveling through Turkey or Jordan to reach the insurgents.

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Everybody knows the money is going through Kuwait and that it’s coming from the Arab Gulf, Andrew Tabler, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told The Daily Beast. Kuwait’s banking system and its money changers have long been a huge problem because they are a major conduit for money to extremist groups in Syria and now Iraq.

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ISIS Receiving Funding From U.S. Allies

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ISIS’s original piggy bank was Saudi Arabia

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Meyer says he has no doubt about where ISIS gets its funding. The most important source of ISIS financing to date has been support coming out of the Gulf states, primarily Saudi Arabia but also Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, Meyer told Deutsche Welle. The Gulf states’ motivation in financing groups like ISIS was to support their fight against the regime of President Bashar al Assad in Syria, according to Meyer. Three quarters of the Syrian population are Sunni Muslims, but Syria is ruled by an elite drawn mostly from the Alawite minority. The Alawites are an offshoot of Shiite Islam.

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ISIS’s original piggy bank was Saudi Arabia | Money Jihad

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Qatar and Saudi Arabia 'have ignited time bomb by funding global spread of radical Islam'

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"This is a time bomb that, under the guise of education, Wahhabi Salafism is igniting under the world really. And it is funded by Saudi and Qatari money and that must stop," said Gen Shaw. "And the question then is 'does bombing people over there really tackle that?' I don't think so. I'd far rather see a much stronger handle on the ideological battle rather than the physical battle."

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Qatar and Saudi Arabia 'have ignited time bomb by funding global spread of radical Islam'

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The following article should be read by everybody. It spotlights the hypocrisy of condemning terrorism while the west knowingly supports it:

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Saudi Bankrolling of al-Qaeda Well Known to U.S. Government

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a Dec. 30, 2009 State Department cable which stated that "donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide."

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Saudi Bankrolling of al-Qaeda Well Known to U.S. Government

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BTW, your (our?) ongoing debate in this thread reminds me of a section in Al Franken's book: "Lies: And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." It highlights the frustration of conversing with simple/hypocritical-thinkers who need to believe that only OTHER people commit evil . . .

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Our National Dialogue on Terrorism

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Franken: Why do they hate us?

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American/British voter: They hate us because they're evil.

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Franken: That's it, huh? That's the entire story?

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American/British voter: Yes. They're evil. And they hate us because of our freedoms.

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Franken: They hate us because of our freedoms?

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American/British voter: But really because they're evil.

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Franken: I know they're evil. I was just thinking that maybe if we understood what specifically seemed
to trigger the

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American/British voter: Why are you apologizing for the terrorists?

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Franken: I'm not. They're evil. You have no quarrel there. It's just that maybe if we understoo

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American/British voter: Why are you on the terrorists' side?

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Franken: I'm not! I hate the terrorists. I was just
saying we might be able prevent the next

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American/British voter: Three thousand Americans dead. How can you defend al Qaeda?

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Franken: Believe me, I was not defending them. What they did was horrific and inexcusable. They're evil. I was just

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American/British voter: Then why are you apologizing for them?

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Franken: I'm not. I'm trying to say that maybe there are lessons we can —

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American/British voter: Why do you hate America?

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Sheesh, speak for yourself. Ever hear the term empathy? How about altruism, even in animals? How about the Golden Rule? At the very least, how about blowback/consequences of not concerning yourself about other people? Yeah Tangle, I guess your type would be shocked to hear that SOME people do hear the screams of others. THEY hold life cheap? THEY?Sayeth a citizen of Britain whose repeated support of war-criminal Tony Blair had caused the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq which caused up to a million innocent civilian deaths. Tony Blair still walks the streets of London freely, doesn't he? To sociopathic Brits, it's as if Tony swatted a few gnats, and nothing worse. And you have the audacity to say THEY hold life cheap? Yeah, just take a look at the following good ol' freedom, democracy, and fraternity your country imported into Iraq. I can see why you would be proud.

Oh yeah, no doubt, from the photo below, I can tell you Brits don't care quite as much about the innocent civilians of Iraq as yourselves. No doubt. Kudos Tangle, you sure corrected me. Sayeth a citizen of Britain whose repeated support of war-criminal Tony Blair had caused the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq which caused up to a million innocent civilian deaths. Tony Blair still walks the streets of London freely, doesn't he? To sociopathic Brits, it's as if Tony swatted a few gnats, and nothing worse.Yep, THEY sure hold life cheap.

Sayeth a citizen of Britain whose repeated support of war-criminal Tony Blair had caused the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq which caused up to a million innocent civilian deaths. Tony Blair still walks the streets of London freely, doesn't he? To sociopathic Brits, it's as if Tony swatted a few gnats, and nothing worse.Yep, THEY hold life cheap.

The force irony and hypocrisy is strong with this one.

Wow, to cover your racism, the above question is the best spin you could invent?Pathetic.

Cultures that murder children/civilians do not value lives.

Hey Hyro,Nice to see you posting again. We had some good debates, hope you stay awhile. Percy, the owner of this forum, has requested we specifically not talk about "people off the north coast of France who support war criminals." But it seems we are okay to talk about non-white, non-christian peoples who support war criminals. I guess It's best that we just look at "other" peoples' crimes.I saw the Sam Harris/Ben Affleck spat on Bill Maher. Interesting. Yeah, usually I agree with Maher's sentiments, but in this case I might be slightly more like Ben Affleck. However, I thought they both missed the boat by not saying the west pushed the Iraqis into survival mode through ISIS by invading Iraq. Again, it's not the religion that has created ISIS, it is being bombed back into the stone age that has precipitated ISIS. American christians would do they same thing if they were in the same predicament.(Did you catch Maher on Colbert last week? Interesting, but Colbert switched gears before it became really interesting.)I thought I just read that France was going to sell the Saudis fighter jets. But I cannot find the web link again. Maybe I am mistaken.Nonetheless, can someone explain to me how the populations allow their governments to continue support for the Saudis, I am so frustrated . . .

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Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia Boost French Economy, but at What Cost?

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"France’s increasingly close rapport with Saudi Arabia under President Francois Hollande has incensed some of his critics, who label him a hypocrite for touting a human rights agenda while maintaining cozy ties with the oil-rich Gulf nation notorious for public executions and beatings."

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Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia Boost French Economy, but at What Cost? - World Politics Review

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France, Saudi Arabia deepen alliance with 10B euros in deals
http://news.yahoo.com/...eals-worth-10b-euros-123148024.html

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France Sells Air Defense Missiles To Saudi Arabia for $4.5 Billion
France Sells Air Defense Missiles To Saudi Arabia for $4.5 Billion - The New York Times

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Et tu Canada?

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Why selling weapons to Saudi Arabia is a bad, bad idea

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"This much you know: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has sealed a multi-billion-dollar deal to buy light armoured vehicles from Canada."

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"Here’s what you might not know: The Saudi regime is buying these vehicles not to defend the nation from foreign threats, but to protect the regime from Saudis from internal dissent and demands for reform."

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http://ipolitics.ca/...ons-to-saudi-arabia-is-a-bad-bad-idea

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The topic is about the latest ISIS attacks. Sadly, the nearly concurrent "non-westernized" Lebanon attack (43 non-western people murdered) didn't register ANY mention or concern in this thread:

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Beirut, Also the Site of Deadly Attacks, Feels Forgotten
Beirut, Also the Site of Deadly Attacks, Feels Forgotten - The New York Times

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I think the people in Lebanon matter too, or do we only count westerners? I think it is appropriate for someone to ask on this forum, why don't they matter? And why doesn't the Iraqi invasion, which murdered so many non-whites, which precipitated these attacks, cause an EQUAL outcry? I think recurring criminal apathy and racism are fair theories to explore, especially when supported with ample evidence.Which leads me to your recent reply. There appears to be a difference between your literal request ("Like to another board entirely?") and your "true" point.What is your "true" point? Please be specific.

So, hypothetically, if the US was guilty of fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things, like ISIL is doing, you would strongly urge similar consequences to the US, right?

I think your posts, and the communication it is generating, are on topic, so I will not ignore you, or will not discuss this through PM. I disagree. I've shown you evidence that supports the recent ISIL attack was precipitated by western criminal apathy and racism. Others on this forum have also shown that on-going racism and hypocrisy is impeding our understanding of ISIL's continuing attacks.And secondly, if your writing about baseless name-calling, I completely agree. However, when someone writes something blatantly racist or clearly hypocritical on the forum, we've always called them on it. How can a debate forum function without. "Supposedly"?(See, if one says something really outrageous, it is called upon.)

I agree, you cannot respect life by murdering doctors.

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Was the U.S. attack on the Kunduz hospital a war crime?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...unduz-hospital-a-war-crime

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By the west uncritically embracing this notion, it allows the west to do similar atrocities and helps perpetuate future terrorist attacks:

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Was the U.S. attack on the Kunduz hospital a war crime?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...unduz-hospital-a-war-crime

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Edited by dronestar, : clarity

Yeah, way, way back in the distant, nearly unmemorable distant past, america had a hegemonic past. And conversely, my ability to travel effortlessly through airports, not have my phone or emails privacy violated, ability to travel to most parts of the world, and most importantly, not to financially support the murder of woman/children/civilians deaths are a direct result of someone else doing the very things humanity finds abhorrent.And apparentlly, even some in the military finds these things repugnant . . .

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Former Drone Operators Say They Were Horrified By Cruelty of Assassination Program

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"We have seen the abuse firsthand, said Bryant, and we are horrified.

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Zcomm » Former Drone Operators Say They Were Horrified By Cruelty of Assassination Program