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Author | Topic: Another one that hurts | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I'd love to but I still have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I'd love to but I still have no idea what point you are trying to make. Jihadist propaganda uses the loss of human lives to persuade people. If they hold life cheap, the loss of human lives would not be persuasive. Jihadist propaganda stands as evidence against your statement that 'they hold life cheap.' I'm not sure how to break it down any more. If you could explain to me what part is confusing, that would help me to help you. I am in danger of sounding patronising again, but I'm at a loss as to how this is complicated.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Straggler writes: Whenever there is an enemy human instinct is to dehumanise and classify those who are against us as some sort of embodiment of pure evil whose motivations are the mirror opposite of our own more noble intentions. Where we hold life dear they deem it to be worthless etc. Correct. And for it to happen there are those amongst the enemy that are, in fact, 'pure evil'. The majority, of course, are not. And I've made a point of saying that repeatedly.
But that's too simplistic. Well it would be if that was what I am saying. But as it isn't .....?
In your analysis you have split the enemy into the truly evil and then the deluded followers brainwashed into evil acts by their genuinely evil ring masters. Again too simplistic. More likely is that, with the exception of a few genuine psychopaths, most ISIS members consider themselves to hold human life very dearly indeed and for that to be one of the core reasons for their actions. Well that's getting closer, but of course that too is exagerated. There seems to be a core group of many thousands of 'pure evil' with enough deluded suicide recruits to create a fascist, mediaeval state capable of doing the most hideous things to their fellow Muslims - like beheading the curator of a museum and hanging his headless body off a lampost just in case others missed the message. Those that do these things, may hold their own life dear like the rest of us, but not so much others. Particularly the infadel.
No doubt they consider the apparent lack of concern the West holds for Arab lives as a sure sign of our depraved inhumanity and deem this a dehumanising justification for why Western lives matter so little. Of course they do.
No doubt I will be accused of advocating some sort of moral equivalence. But I'm not. It's perfectly possible to take a firm moral position on one side rather than another, to whole heartedly condemn the actions and philosophy of ISIS, whilst simultaneously acknowledging that human motivations and psychological needs are universally human. Good.
In fact I would suggest that NOT dehumanising those we oppose, NOT doing as they do in that respect, is a key part of maintaining a morally superior position. Not good. Those that do these wicked things are dehumanised and they should be denounced for it. What shouldn't be done is to tar all Muslims with the same brush.
Are ISIS members motivated to do the things they do by the loss of lives they care about? It certainly seems so. I disagree. I think they do the things they do for the reasons 'evil' people have always done evil things at a group level; power and dogma. They're opportunists filling a vacuum, this is not a people's revolution - it's the exact opposite, it's an attempt to create a totalitarian, murderous theocracy which they want to spread throughout the Middle East and onwards and so far they're doing quite well at it. We're in severe danger of downplaying and looking the other way on that.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Modulous writes: Jihadist propaganda uses the loss of human lives to persuade people. From my perspective Jihadist propaganda is composed of murderers beheading captives, hanging bodies from lampposts and publishing their acts on the internet. They publish the murderers pre-death announcements proclaiming Allah to be great to recruit more fanatics willing to act for their cause. How does any of this suggest that they do not hold life cheap? They kill their own people and anyone that disagrees with their fascist dogma to further their cause or to persuade others to kill themselves. They have no concern for the loss of lives and some have no concern even for their own.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
From my perspective Jihadist propaganda is composed of murderers beheading captives, hanging bodies from lampposts and publishing their acts on the internet. They publish the murderers pre-death announcements proclaiming Allah to be great to recruit more fanatics willing to act for their cause. How does any of this suggest that they do not hold life cheap? It doesn't suggest that. What you did was list a series of things which confirm your hypothesis. Unfortunately you neglected to tackle the evidence with challenges your hypothesis.
They have no concern for the loss of lives and some have no concern even for their own. quote:Adam Gadahn, al-Qaeda senior operative {deceased} quote:Shehzad Tanweer 7/7 suicide bomber Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Modulous writes: What you did was list a series of things which confirm your hypothesis. Correct
Unfortunately you neglected to tackle the evidence with challenges your hypothesis. How is my evidence challenged? The fanatics are merely doing what fanatics do - blame the other side. There are many things we should be heartedly ashamed of, we've made some catastrophic mistakes - some of them not even mistakes. But ISIS are doing this to their own people. When these lunatics take over a city they kill everyone that disagrees with their methods and dogma and impose a fascistic regime of repression of their fellow Muslims. They have no care at all who and how they kill - they do not care for even the lives of their own people let alone us. Propaganda is evidence of lies and distortion - it's a very tortuous argument you are trying to make. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
How is my evidence challenged? The fanatics are merely doing what fanatics do - blame the other side. What are they blaming the other side for doing? Taking lives of their people. This appeals to emotions, as part of the propaganda effort. Those emotions exist because they do not regard life as cheap.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Those emotions exist because they do not regard life as cheap. So in your view, when ISIS massacres Yazidi men, children and those women they deem too old to rape enjoyably, are they regarding their lives as cheap or not ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Percy Member Posts: 22503 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
dronestar writes: What is your "true" point? Please be specific. In plain words, I'm disappointed to see the tenor of discussion drop to the point where members are being labeled racist ("it was just you being a racist," Modulous, Message 353), and where members are condemned because the country where they live was once led by a supposedly immoral prime minister ("Sayeth a citizen of Britain whose repeated support of war-criminal Tony Blair had caused the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq which caused up to a million innocent civilian deaths." Dronestar, Message 352). This isn't the topic, so if that isn't plain enough then we can discuss it through PM. But remember, I'm just a participant here. You can ignore me. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Modulous writes: Those emotions exist because they do not regard life as cheap. 'Those emotions' exist in the people they wish to influence - ordinary Muslims. They do not exist in the people that are promoting the propoganda and murdering their fellow Muslims. If you're just trying to make the point that ordinary Muslims have feling just like everybody else, we agreed on that about ten thousands words ago and many times since.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So in your view, when ISIS massacres Yazidi men, children and those women they deem too old to rape enjoyably, are they regarding their lives as cheap or not ? Does this emotive question attempt to elicit heat or light? I was discussing terrorism in the West.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 377 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Why would people unconcerned by loss of life be so motivated by people losing their lives? They are not motivated by the loss of life. They are motivated by the lack of acceptance of their religious views and submission to their authority.
More likely is that, with the exception of a few genuine psychopaths, most ISIS members consider themselves to hold human life very dearly indeed and for that to be one of the core reasons for their actions. It takes more than a few psychopaths to man all the road blocks and to execute people by the score because they are wearing the wrong clothes or belong to the wrong tribe. You cant execute doctors and aid workers under the banner of respect for life. It is not a respect for life but rather a fanatical devotion to religious belief.
Are ISIS members motivated to do the things they do by the loss of lives they care about? It certainly seems so. In which case it is not that they hold life cheap so much as they have split the world into the human lives that matter and the dehumanised ones that don't. A very typical human psychological response. I say we try not to follow that same path. We don't need propaganda to dehumanize people who would execute a woman doctor who refuses to cover her face. Or who would put someone in a cage and then set them on fire or who would kill someone because of their sense of humour. It is not a distortion to say that these people are inhumane. No doubt that there are many who have been pressed into service and many more who are held captive in their territories with no rights of movement. No doubt that there are scores of children who have been indoctrinated and really can't be held accountable. I agree that we need to be specific about our condemnation and retribution.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
In your view, then, we should separate our analysis of ISIS when it supports and promotes terrorism in the West, from our analysis of it when it operates in its own back yard in Syria/Iraq ? Does that not lead to a severely selective conclusion ?
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 377 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
We can examine propaganda as evidence for how our enemies are radicalizing others. That is how I was using it. Do you disagree? I agree that there are leaders and followers.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
'Those emotions' exist in the people they wish to influence - ordinary Muslims. Exactly. Do you suppose that once they are persuaded by the jihadists, they lose their emotions?
They do not exist in the people that are promoting the propoganda and murdering their fellow Muslims. quote: Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/), also known asthough sometimes distinguished fromsociopathy (/soʊsiˈɒpəθi/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. If you're just trying to make the point that ordinary Muslims have feling just like everybody else, we agreed on that about ten thousands words ago and many times since. Only the likes of psychopaths really value life cheaply, and I would imagine they rarely kill themselves for causes.
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