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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
It was a case of redefining the prophesies but simply announcing one cohesive understanding of them. I could do that, too, and have myself as the fulfillment of that new cohesive understanding. Anyone could do it. As soon as the prophecies can say whatever you want them to say, then they really aren't prophecies anymore.
The prophesies weren't dictated word for word by God but had come through centuries of prophets and others trying to determine the nature of there one true God and how they were to respond. Some got it more right than others. Jesus was the fulfillment of the scriptures but not in the way that many had hoped. How do you determine objectively who got the interpretation right?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Taq writes: I could do that, too, and have myself as the fulfillment of that new cohesive understanding. Anyone could do it. As soon as the prophecies can say whatever you want them to say, then they really aren't prophecies anymore How do you determine objectively who got the interpretation right? You really can only tell after the fact. God resurrected Jesus confirming that Jesus' understanding was the correct one. If one doesn't accept that the resurrection of Jesus was an historical event then there is no reason to believe that Jesus got it right.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
Oh, a question of 2013. Why there are so many revived threads around in EvC.
The problem is that we don't know what is the Messianic prophecies in the minds of Jews back in Jesus' time. Today Messianic prophecies is from today's Judaism, but not the Jewish concepts back in Jesus time. Today's Judaism was built after AD 200.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Hawkins writes:
It's a miracle!
Why there are so many revived threads around in EvC.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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quote: Where ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Matthew 25, for a start. He told us to feed the hungry, etc. That's about this world, isn't it?
ringo writes:
Where ? Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
GDR writes: It seems like Jesus disagreed. God resurrected Jesus confirming that Jesus' understanding was the correct one. Mark 13:32. But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. So, Jesus wasn't God. Maybe Jesus was a schitzo?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: God resurrected Jesus confirming that Jesus' understanding was the correct one.Pressie writes: It seems like Jesus disagreed.Mark 13:32. But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. So, Jesus wasn't God. Maybe Jesus was a schitzo? I don't see Jesus as being God as in having supernatural knowledge. I believe that He went into Jerusalem knowing what those in power do to people who did what He was about to do. He went into Jerusalem fully expecting to be crucified but through His understanding of the Jewish Scriptures and prayer He believed that somehow God the Father, even though He was suffering a humiliating criminal's death, would see Him through it. God did that by resurrecting Him. Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days". It is after the resurrection that Jesus' followers saw Jesus as part of the Trinity through that same understanding. Also of course in understanding Jesus' divinity we can go to the 1st chapter of the Gospel of John where John talks about the "Word" that had existed since before time became flesh. Jesus perfectly embodied the wisdom and nature of God. The resurrection vindicates and affirms the message and life of Jesus.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days". Except Jesus wasn't enthroned and had dominion over no lands. In fact, the Jews were conquered by the Romans soon after the claimed resurrection. So much for prophesy.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Jaywill asked "Where [is the renewal of this world is our responsibility according to Jesus]?
Luke 17:20-21 is highly relevant.
quote: Steve Mason in his Early Christian Reader had these annotations (actually far more, but here are the most relevant).
quote: Then a note for "among you" in verse 21 of chapter 17 in Luke.
quote: Jesus told his apostles (just before the transfiguration or metamorphosis) that they would see the kingdom come with power in their lives around Mark 9:1 (or the last verse in chapter 8) as well as in Luke and Matthew. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21 seemed to put that at the destruction of the Temple. This synoptic material was also contained in the (extremely important)Gospel of Thomas (but different in part). About half of the 114 sayings (logoi) in Thomas are also in the Synoptic Gospels, and (nearly all)scholars now say that Thomas has the earlier form of the sayings (textual experts say it is very much the case). Scholars hypothesized that there was a Q document containing just "sayings" (logoi) of Jesus (of a certain type), and then the discovery of the Gospel of Thomas backed that theory up. Saying 12 of Thomas showed scholars that Jesus appointed James as the leader of the Apostles (the fact of his leadership was always clear because of Acts chapters 12, 15, 21), which was not covered in the Bible we have today. Thomas does seem to contain material from an earlier version of Q than the one Matthew and Luke used. Thomas doesn't seem to have Q material that could post-date the Temple destruction. Thomas clearly has "logoi" material that is earlier than the material that Luke and Matthew used, so it is important. Here is saying 113 of Thomas (and it is part of the post 50 AD branches of a conversation that Jesus could very well have had) in 3 different translations
quote: Mason also refers us to saying 3. Here is the Layton translation of a Greek text found in Egypt.
quote: Mason offered these relevant references when he was at chapter 3, but the chapter 3 itself isn't nearly as important as the text insaying/chapter 113.
quote: (LXX is the Septuagint text, but that isn't so important as to our topic) What is important is that this Gospel, which uses earlier sources than Matthew and Luke (and mark and John too but they don't have Q material), seems to see the kingdom as something that can happen presently. Those who followed James did see the Temple destruction as something of a new age. They didn't see some mythical "church age" inserted between the time of Jesus and John the Baptist and some future "Kingdom of God" (1988 AD? 2000 AD? 2007 AD? ) as the actual beginning. Not that they didn't see a large scale metamorphosis happening suddenly at some point. The metanoia (sp?) or "change of mind" was called for by John the Baptist according to the Gospels. It was translated as "repentance". The dead John the Baptist witnessed the change of body (according to Jesus) for Jesus which was metamorphosis (translated "transfiguration"). But the early sources seem to attest to a present realization of the Kingdom, and the Gospels in the Bible we have today don't contradict the earlier sources (I don't think). It seems that the death of Jesus around 30 A.D. and then the Temple destruction were supposed to be major turning points. The metamorphosis and resurrection were happening for all (albeit slowly as it turned out). That was the view of the followers of James the Just anyway. I'm not so sure that Paul had a much different view. Modern day fundamentalists seem to have issues with the view of the early Jewish Christians though. Perhaps it is because the Roman Empire slaughtered people like crazy after 380 A.D. , and Jewish Christians (who followed James ) were prime targets. Many local church councils targets their worship/lifestyle practices. The Jewish Christians, stood in a line (tradition) that wasn't highly esteemed then and, as a result, isn't now. The Gospel of Thomas (which has many variants and the most complete one might not be standard, but it could be unique in many parts so it is a little risky to assume we have the actual "original" one - and it was based on various sources, early and late) gives us a window into the verses that one Jewish-Christian tradition saw as important. And it (saying 113 of Thomas) doesn't contradict Luke (chapter 17 and then the entire gospel itself), does it? They are saying the same thing, right? (NOTE Please ignore the veritable ignoramus choir (of 4-6 posters) that will rear its head and disrupt by calling my posts "off-topic")
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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GDR writes: Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days".Taq writes: Except Jesus wasn't enthroned and had dominion over no lands. In fact, the Jews were conquered by the Romans soon after the claimed resurrection. So much for prophesy. But that misses the point entirely. His whole message was that the Romans weren't the real enemy. It was evil itself that was the enemy, and evil isn't defeated militarily but with sacrificial love. In Daniel 7 He is enthroned and given dominion over the Kingdom of those who embody His Spirit of sacrificial love in all of the world.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: But that misses the point entirely. His whole message was that the Romans weren't the real enemy. It was evil itself that was the enemy, and evil isn't defeated militarily but with sacrificial love. Nowhere does it say that in the Old Testament prophecies. In all of the prophecies it talks about physically conquering the enemies of Israel. What you have in the NT is a perversion of the prophecies so that anyone can fulfill them. I could fulfill them. All I need to do is pronounce that I have defeated some invisible evil in some invisible way, and POOOF!!!, I'm the Messiah.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Taq writes:
So what. That is my point. Jesus essentially said that they had misinterpreted the prophesies.
Nowhere does it say that in the Old Testament prophecies. In all of the prophecies it talks about physically conquering the enemies of Israel. Taq writes: What you have in the NT is a perversion of the prophecies so that anyone can fulfill them. I could fulfill them. All I need to do is pronounce that I have defeated some invisible evil in some invisible way, and POOOF!!!, I'm the Messiah. Ok, but the credibility of what Jesus said and did is in the resurrection. I have said numerous times that I am a Christian as I believe that God resurrected Jesus. The whole NT is written by guys trying to get their head around that fact, and then figure from their scriptures, and from what Jesus said and did how that does, and how it should, and how it should affect out lives Even His followers didn't get it until after the resurrection. In all likelihood Judas thought that Jesus, with His love your enemy approach, was a traitor to the cause.After the crucifixion his followers just saw Jesus as another failed messiah, that is until the Resurrection. There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes:
Yes, not only because he was killed, just like any other bloke, but also because he failed to return as he promised he would. Thereby failing his own prophecy.
After the crucifixion his followers just saw Jesus as another failed messiah, that is until the Resurrection. There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus. Which is exactly why the myth of the resurrection had to be created. Note that it's easy to create the myth of a resurrection and susequent permanent disappearance, but impossible to create the reality of a real return - the 'second coming'. Just like fake healers can 'heal' those with invisible ailments but not those requiring new limbs. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: So what. That is my point. Jesus essentially said that they had misinterpreted the prophesies. That's what a false Messiah would say when he failed to fulfill the prophecies.
Ok, but the credibility of what Jesus said and did is in the resurrection. I also resurrected: Taq 1:1 On the third day, Taq arose from the dead. I am now as much a Messiah as Jesus. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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