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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 331 of 715 (793308)
10-25-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by GDR
10-24-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:

There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus.


You could say the same thing about Martin Luther King: If he hadn't been raised from the dead the Civil Rights movement would not have continued.

And you'd be wrong about that too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 8:56 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4259
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 332 of 715 (793326)
10-25-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Tangle
10-25-2016 2:33 AM


Re: Temple
Tangle writes:

Yes, not only because he was killed, just like any other bloke, but also because he failed to return as he promised he would. Thereby failing his own prophecy.

Welll He did return in His resurrected body. Which prophesy are you referring to?

Tangle writes:

Which is exactly why the myth of the resurrection had to be created. Note that it's easy to create the myth of a resurrection and susequent permanent disappearance, but impossible to create the reality of a real return - the 'second coming'. Just like fake healers can 'heal' those with invisible ailments but not those requiring new limbs.

First off it would take a pretty large group to start a myth like that. Nobody was able to produce the body which would have ended it. They were all Jews and if they were going to come up with something to start a movement that is not the story that they would have come up with, The stories are critical of the main characters other than Jesus, there are minor differences in the stories indicating that there was no collusion, there was no motive for them to do that and for that matter they wound up being persecuted even to death as Stephen was.

As far as the second coming, or the end of times go Jesus was clear that He didn't know and that only the Father knew the time.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2016 2:33 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Tangle, posted 10-26-2016 3:13 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4259
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 333 of 715 (793327)
10-25-2016 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Taq
10-25-2016 10:51 AM


Re: Temple
Taq writes:

That's what a false Messiah would say when he failed to fulfill the prophecies.


We went through that earlier in this thread. He did fulfill the prophesies but not in the way people expected. Actually in my view the prophesies are important in order to understand what Jesus was saying but that does not mean that the prophesies were necessarily divinely inspired. They may well have been something that prophets came up with in order to understand what they hoped Yahweh would do for them. In either case Jesus formed his mission around them to help people understand what He was about.

Taq writes:

I also resurrected:

Taq 1:1 On the third day, Taq arose from the dead.

I am now as much a Messiah as Jesus.

Good luck pulling that off.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Taq, posted 10-25-2016 10:51 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Taq, posted 10-31-2016 5:09 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4259
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 334 of 715 (793329)
10-25-2016 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by ringo
10-25-2016 11:58 AM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:

You could say the same thing about Martin Luther King: If he hadn't been raised from the dead the Civil Rights movement would not have continued.
And you'd be wrong about that too.

Martin Luther King was a leader in an pre-existing movement that had broad support among a large portion of the community.

For that case nobody made any attempt to suggest such thing about KIng. They did about Jesus and we can believe them or choose to disbelieve them.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 10-25-2016 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 10-26-2016 3:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4966
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 335 of 715 (793335)
10-26-2016 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by GDR
10-25-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:

Welll He did return in His resurrected body.

So the story goes.

Which prophesy are you referring to?

The second coming.

First off it would take a pretty large group to start a myth like that.

No it wouldn't, a rumour would do it - even today it's easy to convince a group of people about almost anything. We're absolutely riddled with superstitions and conspiracy theories. The existence of similar myths from thousands of years ago still believed by millions today, tells us how easy it is to delude people.

As far as the second coming, or the end of times go Jesus was clear that He didn't know and that only the Father knew the time.

Yet he told everyone that it would happen within the generation. And that is what all his followers believed. Hiding a body is easy, telling people you've seen a dead person is easy. Returning from the dead on a cloud surrounded by cherubim and seraphim at the right hand of the Lord is rather trickier. So surprise! The one thing that might have proved his point didn't happen. And still hasn't happened 2000 years later - despite beliver's predicting it happening tomorrow for centuries.

None of this story makes any sense at all. If a god wanted to convince the world of his message what a cack-handed and convoluted way of doing it. I find it really hard to believe that grown-ups believe this stuff. But then we know that people will believe almost anything - regardless of evidence or lack of it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:26 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 336 of 715 (793361)
10-26-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
10-25-2016 8:56 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:

Martin Luther King was a leader in an pre-existing movement that had broad support among a large portion of the community.


So was Jesus. He was a dime a dozen.

GDR writes:

For that case nobody made any attempt to suggest such thing about KIng. They did about Jesus and we can believe them or choose to disbelieve them.


So the only difference between one failed messiah and another is whether or not anybody though he was the messiah?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 8:56 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 871
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 337 of 715 (793366)
10-26-2016 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Taq
10-25-2016 10:51 AM


Kingdom of God and the 2nd coming the same?
I already brought the issue up about the historical Jesus and what he actually might have said. But I'll throw it out again to see if it might possibly lead to a solution to this discussion.

quote:

[Tangle]
Which is exactly why the myth of the resurrection had to be created. Note that it's easy to create the myth of a resurrection and susequent permanent disappearance, but impossible to create the reality of a real return - the 'second coming'. Just like fake healers can 'heal' those with invisible ailments but not those requiring new limbs.

Then

quote:

[GDR]

So what. That is my point. Jesus essentially said that they had misinterpreted the prophesies.

[Taq]
That's what a false Messiah would say when he failed to fulfill the prophecies.


But what did Jesus actually teach? Volume 9 (covering Luke-John) of the New Interpreters Bible had this to say in a commentary on Luke 17:22-37.

quote:

p.330
The coming of the Son of Man, however, is not to be equated with the coming of he kingdom of God. The kingdom is already present.

Here was the conclusion to the commentary on verses 20 to 21 of chapter 17. (which I already quoted)

quote:

p.330

Other nuances have proposed: either that the future kingdom has already arrived unobserved of that it is within their grasp if they will only act to seize it.


My reading of the (evangelical)commentary on verses 22-37 lead me to believe that the commentary is saying that Jesus taught a present kingdom but a future "coming", though that wasn't at all clear in reading the comments to verses 20-21. (20-21 comments had the idea treated as one of many opinions, while 22-37 comments treated the distinction as a self-evident reading).

Mainstream scholars do seem to see that interpretation as very possibly being the (something like) teaching of the actual historical Jesus.

The question is whether or not this solves the problem of Jesus not "coming" back in person (in plain view for everybody to see) in his lifetime.

It might be helpful to quote the actual text while making arguments for or against this "solution".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Taq, posted 10-25-2016 10:51 AM Taq has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 871
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 338 of 715 (793435)
10-28-2016 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Hawkins
09-14-2016 2:35 PM


Prophecies made when?
quote:

[Hawkins]
The problem is that we don't know what is the Messianic prophecies in the minds of Jews back in Jesus' time.

Do we even know what prophecies Jesus himself made? And then we have to wonder, "when did he make them?".

Here is a quote (courtesy of me) that shows us that liberal scholars accept the Judas story.

There was a show called,Peter Jennings Reporting, The Search for Jesus, ABC, and it aired June 26, 2000. Liberal scholar, and co founder of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominique Crossan said this (the was a response to charges that Judas was an anti-Semitic slur name that was made up late, but that isn't the point of my quote)

quote:

[Crossan]
The trouble is, of course, that that was not the way people in the first century would have heard it, because [Judas] was an ordinary name. Theres a lot of evidence that somebody-Im deliberately putting this very vaguely-somebody close to Jesus betrayed Him.

Jesus knew at some point that he would die. So he could very well have made predictions of a return or "second coming". We know of at least one "I shall return to establish righteousness" God-man individuals from before the time of Jesus (Krishna of India). It would have been known in the Greek-ruled kingdoms in India during the life of Jesus. How influential India was on Greek culture (in the empire of Rome, which was isolated from the Greek Kingdoms in India by the Persian Parthian Empire)is something very much debated. And that doesn't even get to the Krishna issue, which is ignored.

We have to ask if Jesus could have known of his death before the Judas betrayal. Like, would the Lord's Supper have actually been said by Jesus?

Look at the context of the Lord's Supper (the Jerusalem entry which lead to the upper room Passover) as described by a conservative scholar.

quote:

N. T. Wright
Jesus and the Victory of God
p.342
[the disciples] had come to Jerusalem expecting Jesus to be enthroned as the rightful king. This would necessarily involve Jesus taking over the authority which the Temple symbolized. They were now confronted with the startling news that this taking over of authority would mean the demolition, literal and metaphorical, of the Temple, whose demise Jesus had in fact constantly predicted, and which he had already symbolically overthrown in his dramatic (but apparently inconsequential) action in the Temple itself. The disciples now heard his prophetic announcement of the destruction of the Temple as the announcement, also, of his own vindication; in other words, of his own coming-not floating around on a cloud, of course, but of his coming to Jerusalem as the vindicated, rightful king.

Did Jesus really make this prophetic announcement though? (if so then was it edited so much so as to permanently mangle all the quotes we have today about his Temple prediction?)

And did he say he would be a sacrifice in place of animals being killed? Or was that added after his death?

Did he teach 2 comings? That is his death would come then a return later in time?

Would it be the same thing as the "kingdom" talked about by John the Baptist (in the Gospels)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Hawkins, posted 09-14-2016 2:35 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7034
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 339 of 715 (793515)
10-31-2016 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by GDR
10-25-2016 7:36 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:

We went through that earlier in this thread. He did fulfill the prophesies but not in the way people expected.

Then he didn't fulfill the prophecies. Sorry, but you don't get to change the prophecies when you fail to fulfill them.

Good luck pulling that off.

I already did it. I am the Messiah by every measure that Jesus is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:36 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by NoNukes, posted 11-01-2016 5:54 AM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 343 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 8:34 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 340 of 715 (793530)
11-01-2016 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Taq
10-31-2016 5:09 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:

We went through that earlier in this thread. He did fulfill the prophesies but not in the way people expected.

Taq writes:

Then he didn't fulfill the prophecies. Sorry, but you don't get to change the prophecies when you fail to fulfill them.

I don't think this is a valid argument. Let me provide a mundane example.

So philosopher postulates that the laws of physics are invariant in form in all reference frames based on some insight imparted to him during a rheumatic fever dream enhanced by peyote. Folks fail to understand how such a thing can be because the laws of physics do not appear to be invariant in accelerated reference frames or gravitational fields. So they postulate that the original philosopher is predicting an upheaval in nature that changes how things work in accelerated frames.

Hundreds of years later some genius works out the theory of general relativity. Turns out that the laws of physics were invariant in form all along and that the original philosopher was correct in ways nobody understood. His fevered inspiration wasn't wrong or non-prophetic just because none of his peers understood him. Instead, his peers were simply wrong.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Taq, posted 10-31-2016 5:09 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by FLRW, posted 11-01-2016 7:22 PM NoNukes has responded

  
FLRW
Junior Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 12
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 341 of 715 (793551)
11-01-2016 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by NoNukes
11-01-2016 5:54 AM


Re: Temple
NoNukes, you have simply given an example of coincidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by NoNukes, posted 11-01-2016 5:54 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2016 12:28 AM FLRW has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 342 of 715 (793650)
11-03-2016 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by FLRW
11-01-2016 7:22 PM


Re: Temple
NoNukes, you have simply given an example of coincidence.

Given that my example was entirely made up by me, who are you to say what the cause of the fever dream being right might be? As I told the story, the original philosopher somehow acquired an insight akin to the one that Giordano Bruno gained through a mysticism fueled by illness and drug. Since it is my story, and mine alone, I maintain that the insight was not coincidence, but rather the product of the pure genius of an unconstrained mind. What I described was a man who was correct well before his time and who possibly had the same insight Einstein later had without being able to finish the math.

Now maybe that is not how things really work, but isn't that what you'd say about any prophecy?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by FLRW, posted 11-01-2016 7:22 PM FLRW has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 343 of 715 (793663)
11-03-2016 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Taq
10-31-2016 5:09 PM


Taq writes:

I am the Messiah by every measure that Jesus is

*Blink*

You did not just say that did you?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Taq, posted 10-31-2016 5:09 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 871
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 344 of 715 (797804)
01-27-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Hawkins
09-14-2016 2:35 PM


Hawkins post again.
quote:

Oh, a question of 2013. Why there are so many revived threads around in EvC.
The problem is that we don't know what is the Messianic prophecies in the minds of Jews back in Jesus' time.

Today Messianic prophecies is from today's Judaism, but not the Jewish concepts back in Jesus time. Today's Judaism was built after AD 200.


I just put "eschatology" into the Encyclopedia Iranica search engine. It got 95 results.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/.../search/keywords:eschatology

It has a lot of religions covered and how their development relates to other religions like Judaism.

It pays attention to the issues of what was believed and when. WHEN WHEN WHEN?

Also, Bart Ehrman is one that attempts to look at what was believed, during "the time" of his life, by Jews, and specifically as is relates to messianic terms and issues. His interviewer, Terry Gross, is aware of the issue, as one can see in this transcribed interview.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?st...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Hawkins, posted 09-14-2016 2:35 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 345 of 715 (804337)
04-08-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Your ignorance of prophecy doesnt negate Jesus fulfilling ALL Messianic Prophecy including the exact year of His Birth

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/TimeProphecy.html

But to understand it, you must know Grade Six Math and be able to add and multiply.

Just ask and we can do a NEW TOPIC on the exact year of the Messiah Birth, Ha even the exact location of His birth and alignment of His birth.. But lets stick to the year 1st.

Why do the heathen rage and imagine a vain thing.

They fight prophecy tooth and nail because time by design destroys their billions and trillions of years of theories and false hope

PS) The Branch is NOT JESUS, Jesus is the Vine, Jesus is the Messiah, Jesus is God.

The Branch are the Two Branches, Two Pillars, Two candlesticks, Two olive trees....... And that's just the first mistake I saw when reading this unfortunate deny deny deny DENY thread.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
Evolution is not science and is pure religion, forced upon the young to ensure their faith in luck and chance rather than mathematics and design.

The Lord created science and all things. Laws did not create themselves. Nothing happened by chance and accident.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:47 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 10:39 AM Davidjay has responded
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