Member Rating: 3.8
Message 108 of 114 (800967)
03-02-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
03-02-2017 3:39 AM
Re: Unjust Universe+Just God.
Everyone is naturally bad without exception:
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man." (Mark.7:21-23)
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." (Romans 5:12)
This is true in particular of those whom God has chosen to save:
"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col. 2:13)
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph. 2:1-5)
"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (Rom. 3:9-12)
"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight." (Col. 1:21 - 22)
The selection of some people for salvation was therefore arbitrary, at God's own good pleasure and not based in any way on choosing the better people over the worse:
"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began." (2 Tim. 1:9)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16)
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-5)
"For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."" (Rom. 9:11-13)
It is Biblical doctrine, then, that all are wicked and deserve punishment, but that some, no less wicked and no more deserving, shall get eternal infinite happiness instead. The Christian religion is, then, based on the hope that in the afterlife justice will not be done to all people --- specifically, that it will not be done to Christians.
|This message is a reply to:|
| ||Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-02-2017 3:39 AM|| ||Phat has responded|
|Replies to this message:|
| ||Message 109 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:12 PM|| ||Dr Adequate has not yet responded|
From: Ontario, Canada
Member Rating: 2.5
Message 114 of 114 (803855)
04-05-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
04-03-2017 2:15 PM
Re: Making Do
Does lack of proof preclude us from having Faith?
I don't think so.
|Is an intuition measurable?|
I don't know.
I haven't heard of a reliable way yet, though.
|You have mentioned that you are open to being shown a better way.|
How would you respond if you were shown such a way that had no proof?
I do not understand your question.
If I were shown a way... then that "showing" would be the proof.
If there was actually "no proof.." then how would you show it in the first place?
I think that by "showing a way" you're simply using the idea of "claiming a way."
Those two things are fundamentally different.
A claim can be made for anything.
It may be true, it may not.
Showing something can only be done if you can actually do it.
If anything is showed to someone... it must be a part of reality.
An orphan who doesn't know his parents.
You can show him parents.
But really... you're only showing him your claim that "these are your parents."
In order to actually show him parents... you would have to take a DNA test from him, and the claimed parents, explain how DNA works and how the testing works to him... and then show him the honest results.
Without doing that, you're not really "showing him" parents.
You're simply showing him a claim that "these are your parents."
With that understanding, I hope you can see the inherent oxymoron involved in the question "what if you were shown a way with no proof?"
The answer is: If there's no proof, then no one ever really "show a way" in the first place. They merely showed a claim of a way.
Which has the problem of all claims. It may be true, and it may be false.
This unknown of whether it's true or not is exactly how we know that it wasn't really "showed" to anyone.
|This message is a reply to:|
| ||Message 110 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:15 PM|| ||Phat has acknowledged this reply|