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Author Topic:   What to say if you met God/god/Gods/gods
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 61 of 116 (763353)
07-23-2015 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2015 8:14 PM


Those that conclude God could be doing a better job don't really understand the implications of their demands as I have partly brought out. They see injustice and cannot comprehend how an all powerful God could let this happen. They don't understand he cannot exercise great power like that without inevitable consequences, so he is not all powerful, it is limited by the huge interconnectedness of life.

In my mind, God is doing an excellent job at justice given his constraints I have tried to illustrate. If there is an afterlife, I suspect all remaining injustices will be corrected and it will not be a pretty sight. A metaphor called the lake of fire tries to give a sense of it to our imagination.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 8:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 9:02 AM foreveryoung has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 62 of 116 (763372)
07-24-2015 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 8:06 PM


If God does something, he would have to reveal himself.

Well according to the Bible this is not something God is shy about doing. A plague of frogs here, a rain of blood there, thundering from mountain tops, going about as a column of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night. It's true that he hasn't done any of that stuff lately, but it's clearly not something he abstains from doing in principle.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 8:06 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 5:46 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3045
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 63 of 116 (763373)
07-24-2015 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


I first saw the team of Fry and Laurie on PBS in "Jeeves and Wooster". For far too many years Hugh Laurie played the absolute buffoon. I am glad to see him go beyond that role.

The fundamental problem with "God", is that everybody has defined what "God" is supposed to be and all the definitions are in conflict.


This message is a reply to:
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foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 64 of 116 (763376)
07-24-2015 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
07-24-2015 1:08 AM


The world was a much more superstitious place back then. He also revealed himself to a limited audience. He revealed himself to a world that believed in many gods. His revealing himself was partly to show he was greater than those other gods.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-24-2015 1:08 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2015 8:26 AM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-24-2015 10:13 AM foreveryoung has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 65 of 116 (763385)
07-24-2015 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by foreveryoung
07-24-2015 5:46 AM


foreveryoung writes:

The world was a much more superstitious place back then

Which is exactly how and why the myths started and proliferated. Funy how when we know more about how the world works, He disappears from view.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 5:46 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 11:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 66 of 116 (763386)
07-24-2015 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 8:25 PM


Those that conclude God could be doing a better job don't really understand the implications of their demands as I have partly brought out. They see injustice and cannot comprehend how an all powerful God could let this happen.

Or perhaps they do understand and can comprehend how, and that is part of what leads them to conclude that the God is not worthy of worship.

This idea of yours that if people just understood and comprehended like you do then they would agree with you is not in the slightest bit convincing.

They don't understand he cannot exercise great power like that without inevitable consequences, so he is not all powerful, it is limited by the huge interconnectedness of life.

They could also consider this God of yours that is impotent as not being worthy of worship for that reason.

In my mind, God is doing an excellent job at justice given his constraints I have tried to illustrate.

You mean: constraints that you have invented.

Even granting your constraints, it still isn't necessitated that the God is worth of worship.

If there is an afterlife, I suspect all remaining injustices will be corrected and it will not be a pretty sight. A metaphor called the lake of fire tries to give a sense of it to our imagination.

Well that God is a jerk, so He's not worthy of worship.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 8:25 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 67 of 116 (763391)
07-24-2015 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by foreveryoung
07-24-2015 5:46 AM


The world was a much more superstitious place back then. He also revealed himself to a limited audience. He revealed himself to a world that believed in many gods. His revealing himself was partly to show he was greater than those other gods.

Whereas nowadays he's happy to sit back and let 1.6 billion people give all the credit to Allah?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 5:46 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 10:56 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 68 of 116 (763393)
07-24-2015 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dr Adequate
07-24-2015 10:13 AM


Nope. You assume too much. He hates it but allows it and does not intervene. This is modern society as I have said before. This world would turn upside done with incontrovertibls evidence of his existence. Mass genocide comes to mind.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-24-2015 10:13 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-19-2015 4:18 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 69 of 116 (763394)
07-24-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2015 9:02 AM


Can you make up your mind? Do you want justice or not? Its impossible for him to intervene in today's injustices of modern society. If he let's it go on unrectified in the afterlife, you will also accuse him of being a jerk for letting people get off Scott free.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 9:02 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 11:21 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 70 of 116 (763395)
07-24-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tangle
07-24-2015 8:26 AM


I know how the world works scientifically, his existence to me only becomes more real with each piece of knowledge I gain.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2015 8:26 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2015 11:14 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 116 (763396)
07-24-2015 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by foreveryoung
07-24-2015 11:03 AM


foreveryoung writes:

I know how the world works scientifically, his existence to me only becomes more real with each piece of knowledge I gain.

It seems that the less superstitious we become, the fewer ghosts there are.

Coincidence?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 11:03 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 72 of 116 (763397)
07-24-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by foreveryoung
07-24-2015 11:00 AM


Can you make up your mind? Do you want justice or not?

Justice here. And nothing permanent.

Its impossible for him to intervene in today's injustices of modern society.

Which is a reason for him to not be worthy of worship.

If he let's it go on unrectified in the afterlife, you will also accuse him of being a jerk for letting people get off Scott free.

Setting it up as a dichotomy between "scott free" and "everlasting punishment" is itself an injustice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 11:00 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 08-18-2015 2:02 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 73 of 116 (763399)
07-24-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 1:28 PM


foreveryoung writes:

God existing and allowing injustice does not mean he is ignoring injustice. It could mean there are very good reasons for him allowing it.


"Ignoring" means not doing anything, even if there are good reasons for not doing anything.

foreveryoung writes:

A politician is not responsible for creating the world. He has powers to do things about problems. I've also noticed that some of the laws passed created to alleviate problems create a whole new set of problems.


But God IS responsible for creating the world. You have a low opinion of a God who can't do anything without creating more problems.

foreveryoung writes:

So, I would probably elect the politician who sat on his ass all day over the guy arrogant enough to think he can make a difference without turning this country more totalitarian than it already is.


Oddly enough, it's usually the right-wing nuts who "don't want the government to do anything" who are pressing for more totalitarian measures.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 1:28 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10253
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 74 of 116 (766419)
08-18-2015 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
02-11-2015 10:21 AM


Competition
Tangle writes:

I think my question will be

'Why did you make life on earth competitive?'

It seems to me that humans are solely responsible for this nature.

If two hunters see the same food source, what is it that compels them to be wary of each other rather than cooperative? What is it that compels Americans to consume 70 times the resources that they need?(While other places virtually starve)

Will Milton Friedman end up in hell over all of this?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2015 10:21 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2015 3:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10253
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 75 of 116 (766420)
08-18-2015 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2015 11:21 AM


Worthship
Cat Sci writes:

Which is a reason for him to not be worthy of worship.

It seems to me that by nature humans usually celebrate(worship) themselves.

One can pout in the corner and refuse to come to the dinner table, but will usually find little else worth doing...independent spirit notwithstanding.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 11:21 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2015 10:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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