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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 93 of 283 (816602)
08-07-2017 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-11-2014 5:44 PM


IMHO it misses the point.
phat writes:
Also allowed in this topic are other conclusions and how they are logically arrived at, given of course that GOD exists.
I think I'd like to try it from a different perspective The whole question, as you put it in the OP, pretty much seems to revolve around who is saved and who isn't. The supposition being that we are saved to heaven and from hell. How about the more Biblical theme that we are saved for a purpose?
So much of Christianity has turned Christ's teaching on its ear and made it all about the self. The big question so often seems to me to be what is going to happen to me when I die. What can I do to ensure a good outcome? Jesus' message was that we are to take the focus off of ourselves and begin to love unselfishly and yet here are many Christians again focusing on the self.
So yes, God chooses those whose hearts are turned by His Holy Spirit, (that still small voice that is there for all of us), to be His instruments to build for a world where we actively anticipate the time when all of creation is renewed and unselfish love is fully the norm. Tangle is right in that the world is not what it should be, but God's end game is a world where the wolf will lay down with the lamb.
I like Psalm 37 vs 4 where it says that we should delight in the Lord and that He will give us the desires of our heart. God through His Spirit, (again that still small voice), is the great heart changer, and if we respond positively to that voice God will cause us to desire that which he desires for us.
In Ephesains 1 Paul tells us that ultimately ALL things on heaven and on earth will be renewed under Christ. That isn’t to say that our choices in this life aren’t important for us as individuals but ultimately it is our hearts that will be judged and I simply trust in God’s perfect justice. I am best able to picture how that happens by CS Lewis’ images in both The Great Divorce and The Last Battle.
Bottom line is, we are chosen for vocation, (reflecting God’s love into His creation), and if we respond to that the next life will take care of itself.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-11-2014 5:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 96 of 283 (816831)
08-11-2017 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
08-10-2017 3:56 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Tangle writes:
But this leaves the original question hanging. Why would the loving god described by believers, set up such a system? By our own morality - that which believers tell me their god gave us - such an experiment would judged profoundly unethical, not to say evil.
Hi Tangle
As Christians we have to be able some how to deal with the problems you raise. All I can do is give you my own thinking which will no doubt not change your mind but at least it gives me a chance to condense my own thinking.
Firstly my understanding of the Bible and the world we live in leads me to the conclusion that this is a project begun and maintained by an intelligence, that I know as God. That project is not yet complete. It may be meant as a metaphor, but I take seriously the biblical comment that ultimately the wolf will lay down with the lamb, and not eat it. I think that the ultimate climax of this creation will be a new creation that won’t exhibit the problems that you have outlined.
I conclude that in order to get to that new world this world as we know it is necessary. The world we live in now is subject to entropy as a result of existing in a world where time only flows in one direction. As a result tectonic plates shift and cause earthquakes and tsunamis. We also live in a world that is open where are left with free will, and as a result are allowed to choose between good and evil. People often choose evil but many also choose to love sacrificially. When people choose the evil route it usually causes misery and suffering for others. As I say, though I don’t believe that is the end of the story.
I believe that as humans we are charged with living lives that will reflect that new world that ultimately God will create into the present. It again is my belief that this is the ultimate human vocation. So I believe that we are living in a creation that is in process, and that somehow God will ultimately use the love that we reflect into this world in the present into the final act of creation and the renewal of all things.
So essentially I agree with NN that this world with all its faults is necessary in order to get to a world where the problems that you bring up no longer exist.
Edited by GDR, : Left out a period.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2017 3:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 3:11 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 100 of 283 (816875)
08-12-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
08-12-2017 3:11 AM


Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
Firstly, for millions of years the wolf has been slaughtering lambs - we now know that almost all of life that there has ever been here on earth is now extinct. Gone. Trillons of organisms. This experiment of your god is a cataclysmic failure that's caused millions of years of pain and suffering and is going to continue until the suns dies or Kim Jong-un decices to end it for us.
Second, in order for you to believe what you now say, you have to accept that your god is not the all loving, all knowing, all powerful, everywhere god of you teachings but a limited and blundering one only capable of creating this mess in the hope that it all gets better one day. The best you can say is that the ends might justify the means - a vain hope and one that we ourselves consider immoral.
I believe in a creative intelligence that is responsible for all life as we know it. I believe that He detests our suffering and that ultimately there will be perfect justice for the Hitlers, Stalins and Pol Pots of this world as well as for those that suffered as a result of theirs and others evil. I believe that the suffering of this life will end with a world where there will be no suffering.
You however believe, correct me if I’m wrong, that we are the result of mindless particles combining by chance and through myriads of processes to bring about evolution and sentient life with an understanding of morality. Also, that at the end of individual life, as well as for all of creation as we perceive it, there is nothing but oblivion.
Why do you care about suffering in far flung parts of the world let alone have any desire to actual sacrifice your own resources to do anything about it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 3:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 5:10 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 104 of 283 (816904)
08-13-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Tangle
08-12-2017 5:10 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
Of course if you apply Occam's razor and throw away the unnecessary god hypothesis, the problem is solved - life is short, disposable and brutish because it has no goal except to create more life in whatever means it can - no matter have inefficient and nasty.
I suggest that Occam's razor insists that we are the result of design by an intelligence. Your solution requires endless processes all requiring incredible amounts of good fortune to get from mindless particles to an evolutionary process resulting in life as we know it.
Actually, God did it is by far the simplest explanation.
GDR writes:
Why do you care about suffering in far flung parts of the world let alone have any desire to actual sacrifice your own resources to do anything about it.
Tangle writes:
Because I'm human, why else?
Why do I not do anything much about it? (Because I'm human.)
What kind of explanation is that? You are doing what you accuse me of doing which is restating your beliefs. t.
Why would a collection of mindless particles care about another collection of mindless particles that they have no connection with, have never met and that are using up available resources.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 5:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 08-13-2017 10:57 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2017 1:08 PM GDR has replied
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 08-13-2017 2:15 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 108 of 283 (816936)
08-13-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
08-13-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
It's certainly a simple thing to say, but how is it an explanation?
It isn't an explanation no more than it is an explanation to say that we are the result of endless mindless processes.
Tangle writes:
But the discussion is not about whether goddidit, the claim is that if he did, then he's a psychopath. So far you haven't said anything to refute that other than that you hope he isn't.
Firstly we don't know what other options there were for God. You seem to be maintaining the fundamentalist position that God being all powerful could add 2 and 2 and get blue.
I'm a Christian who believes that one can look to Jesus Christ to understand the true nature of God. In Jesus we can see a god who cares immensely about us and suffers with us in our suffering. We see in Jesus someone who was prepared to suffer a tortuous and humiliating death based on sacrificial love.
If I am correct in my belief that God will ultimately finish with a renewed creation without suffering that involves us, then we had to initially be able to freely choose good or evil. In a world where only goodness existed without the initial freedom to choose that goodness and rejecting evil it, could no longer be called good. It would just be the way things are, and calling someone good would be like one fish saying to another, "golly you're wet".
It seems to me then that in order to come to a world where love is fundamental to existence, then it requires a world something like our own.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2017 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 109 of 283 (816937)
08-13-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
08-13-2017 2:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:
An unknown and unevidenced all-designing intelligence is just about the definition of a superfluous entity.
Not really. Getting from mindless particles to a single cell and then to sentient life by an endless series of processes due to an endless string of good fortune, is no simpler than the idea that those processes were the result of a pre-existing intelligence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 08-13-2017 2:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:11 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 172 of 283 (817331)
08-16-2017 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
08-14-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Getting from mindless particles to a single cell and then to sentient life by an endless series of processes due to an endless string of good fortune, is no simpler than the idea that those processes were the result of a pre-existing intelligence.
ringo writes:
A string of known processes, no matter how earnestly you want to reject it, is simpler than adding a complex intelligence to it. A driveway is simpler than a driveway with a car in it. A bottle is simpler than a bottle with a firefly in it. A blank page is simpler than a page with a sonnet written on it.
X is simpler than X + Y. Period.
Your examples are total non-sequiturs. A better example would be a car assembly line. We can observe all of the processes that result in the finished product. Which is the simpler conclusion? Is it that all of the processes just happened due to multiple chance occurrences or that is is all caused by a pre-existing intelligence.
Occam's razor points to our existence being the result of intelligence and not blind chance.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:51 PM GDR has replied
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2017 4:54 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 177 of 283 (817338)
08-16-2017 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
08-16-2017 4:51 PM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:
But chemical processes are not intelligent to begin with so they don't add up to intelligent no matter how big the pile is.
Sure the chemical processes themselves are mindless but the question is why did the processes happen in the first place. Bronze didn't come into existence by chance but because intelligent beings brought the necessary elements together.
You are arguing for basic elements to come together to form atoms, atoms to single cells, atoms to life, and life to evolve into sentient moral beings and all that by chance. You have far more faith than I do.
It is much simpler to conclude that all that happened due to intelligent design. (And again, not the form of distortion of ID that argues nonsensically against evolution.)
ringo writes:
Wrong is still wrong no matter how many times you assert it. Occam's razor points away from the superfluous intelligence.
Wrong is still wrong no matter how many times you assert it. Occam's razor points to intelligence and away from an ontology of a virtually infinite number of examples of random chance.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 11:45 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 178 of 283 (817339)
08-16-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Tangle
08-16-2017 4:54 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
Nope. Inserting the supernatural into a natural regime is just a cop out with no explanatory value, and it's the worst form of unnecessary hyptheises imaginable.
quote:
His [Occam's] principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.
You added a superfluous supernatural being.
I'm not inserting anything that you aren't. We simply come to our own conclusions. Is the world as we know it the result of random chance or intelligence. You have to insert one or the other.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2017 4:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 9:06 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 190 of 283 (817443)
08-17-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Tangle
08-17-2017 9:06 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
You've inserted the supernatural into the natural world - how much bigger do you need an unnecessary hypothesis to be?
I haven't inserted anything. I simply have an explanation for cause. Either the world, and specifically cellular life is caused by intelligence or by random chance.
Tangle writes:
Until you can demonstarte the existence of anything supernatural, the working hypothesis is that the universe is naturally occurring.
So we can see the world naturally occurring but that isn't the point. Is that by a mindless cause or an intelligent cause? You can insert the one you choose to believe.
You just have made the incorrect choice.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 9:06 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 1:48 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 191 of 283 (817445)
08-17-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
08-17-2017 11:45 AM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:
Hydrogen and oxygen have an emergent affinity for each other. They don't need an intelligence to bring them together and tell them what to do.
How do you know that. You just observe what happened but you haven't established whether or not it is by design.
GDR writes:
ou are arguing for basic elements to come together to form atoms, atoms to single cells, atoms to life, and life to evolve into sentient moral beings and all that by chance.
ringo writes:
Actullay, I'm not arguing that in this thread. I'm arguing that that scenario is simpler than one that adds intelligence to the mix.
Adding something complex does not simplify anything. A driveway is simpler than a driveway with a car in it. A bottle is simpler than a bottle with a firefly in it. A blank page is simpler than a page with a sonnet written on it.
X is simpler than X + Y. Period.
But you are arguing that. You are saying that the natural processes that have resulted in the world as we know it are simply driven by a virtually an infinite number of cases of random chance, and that constitutes the cause of it all. I am arguing for the much simpler explanation that instead of the all the cases where random chance played a part in our existence there is simply one cause; a creation by intelligence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 1:56 PM GDR has replied
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 11:57 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 194 of 283 (817450)
08-17-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Tangle
08-17-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
You can believe whatever cause you like, but if we're talking about the principle of Occam's razor, your goddidit is an unnecessary hypothesis. Given that everything else we've ever seen or investigated is naturally occurring, the null hypothesis is natural causes.
But there is no null hypothesis. It is either random chance or intelligence. Random chance is an hypothesis for cause.
Tangle writes:
(This is without even considering the infinite regression involved with a 'causal' god.)
..or considering the regression involved of an infinite number of processes driven solely by random chance.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 1:48 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 195 of 283 (817452)
08-17-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Tangle
08-17-2017 1:56 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
I know it's important to you to keep saying 'random chance' but really, you're smart enough to not do this. Chemical processes are not random, evolution is not random, planetary orbits are not random. If you follow physics, you'll see that there are mathematicians like Hawkings that believe that the universe's self generation was inevitable. This is not something I understand, but it's current thinking which does not require a godly intervention.
I agree with you when you say that "chemical processes are not random, evolution is not random, planetary orbits are not random". There is a coherence to them. My point is whether or not the natural chemical processes, the evolutionary forces and planetary orbits are the result of intelligence or not. If not than again it boils down to intelligence or random chance.
So Hawking believes that self generation was inevitable. I like you don't understand that either, but assuming he is right then the question remains; was the inevitability there due to chance or intelligence?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 1:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 2:28 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 207 of 283 (817506)
08-17-2017 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
08-17-2017 6:54 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:
When you say 'We', you mean your sect. Other 'Wes' teach something different. GDR's god is not the same as your god - yet you both say they are the god of this Jesus guy.
Still others have their own personal gods - like NCE and NoNukes - that are apparently still Christian gods but are the lessor versions with more human scale powers.
Its a puzzle isn't it? Who am I to believe represents the 'real' one?
Obviously you should pick me.
The thing is Tangle, mankind has long struggled with trying to determine the nature of their god or gods and how that should impact their lives. In most cases it has been about how to get their god/gods to do what they want them to do.
My problem with much of Christianity is that in recent years it has been about how to get God to put them in a good spot after they die. Actually when you read the Gospel accounts of Jesus life it is primarily about being a kingdom people and serving God's creation, which includes not only other humans but all of creation.
Faith believes in an inerrant Bible which paints a very confused picture of God when which has Him commanding genocide on one hand and telling us to love our enemy on the other. Faith somehow manages to accept both positions.
My view is that we understand all of scripture through the lens of what we have about Jesus, based on the faith that Jesus perfectly embodies the nature of God. Theology is not like science. Theologians cannot work out mathematical formulas or conduct experiments to prove their views. We simply live our lives imperfectly based on what we believe about the nature of God and what that should mean to our lives.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:54 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 12:17 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 211 of 283 (817526)
08-18-2017 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
08-18-2017 12:17 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:
Genocide is murder. So many people these days don't know the difference between justice and criminality, so they go out and protest the death penalty though it is justice against murder. What God commanded is justice -- earned judgment. That's why I have no problem reconciling two supposed pictures of God -- God is severely just and He's merciful and loving.
OK Faith. I completely reject that for reasons that I have already stated, but let's just say that is correct.
In the OT we see Yahweh acting personally to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for essentially the same reason. God didn't need the Israelites to slaughter innocent infants. You however believe that Yahweh ordered them to do just that.
Why would He subject the chosen people that He loves to slaughter men, women children and beasts knowing the physiological damage, (have you heard about PTSD?), that it would do to the Israelites. These are the people whom He called to spread His love to the world.
If Yahweh wanted the Canaanites dead why didn't He just do it Himself.
Also, it is the same situation with stoning to death your neighbour because he was picking up firewood on the Sabbath. That obviously is totally against what Jesus taught and again what does it do to the community that He loves to be stoning their friend and neighbour to death? And, if you still think that it was necessary then you have a very different understanding of the nature of God than Jesus did. For that matter, once again why didn't He just do it Himself if it was actually necessary?
Once again remember it is CHRISTianity not BIBLEianity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 12:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:06 AM GDR has replied

  
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