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Author | Topic: The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: True...but if you help the absolute bottom first, the middle will suffer and collapse back down into the working class. I didn't work hard all my life to simply earn minimum wage forever. I'm saying that propping up the middle class makes the working class worse off - because those things are not being done for the working class.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I didn't work hard all my life to simply earn minimum wage forever. What are the last three marketable skills that you've learned?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
They're welcome to it. I'm saying that they shouldn't expect the economic system to prop up their ability to do so. They are not being "down-trodden" just because they can't do it.
And if their own way is the ability to leave something to their heirs?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Again, boo-hoo.
...but if you help the absolute bottom first, the middle will suffer and collapse back down into the working class. Phat writes:
A lot of people did. What makes you special?
I didn't work hard all my life to simply earn minimum wage forever.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What makes you special? I am not asking for the entitlement. I am only asking for the continued opportunity. If all wages were cut so that everyone who was not an owner had to work for minimum wage, I would see that as patently unfair. In my union, we are rewarded with higher wages based upon years of service. When an employee is just in or out of high school, they don't need the same amount of money as a parent or potential retiree needs. Of course, I forget that you are quite far to the left. I am not right wing but am most definitely a moderate. I see advantages to both extremes. Every citizen should have the opportunity to earn more than when they were first hired. If you remove that incentive, what have you got left?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who said anything about cutting wages? I'm in favour of raising wages - but starting at the bottom.
If all wages were cut so that everyone who was not an owner had to work for minimum wage, I would see that as patently unfair. Phat writes:
That's a lie that capitalists use to keep wages low. Since when are people paid on the basis of what they need? As you said yourself, you (should) be paid more as you gain experience and become more valuable to your employer. But that isn't the case for minimum-wage earners. They're paid as little as the employer can get away with, regardless of their experience and value.
When an employee is just in or out of high school, they don't need the same amount of money as a parent or potential retiree needs. Phat writes:
An underpaid working class, like we have now.
Every citizen should have the opportunity to earn more than when they were first hired. If you remove that incentive, what have you got left?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Knowing full well that leveling everyone out won't work...why deprive the middle class of their efforts? You seem to be favoring the working class. One could argue that this is just as bad as favoring the upper class (as Republicans do) or favoring the middle class (as I do) I'm in favour of raising wages - but starting at the bottom. I totally get your philosophy of bringing all classes closer together. I'm just angry that the middle group gets squeezed lower. Boo Hoo indeed! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We don't know that. But I didn't suggest it either.
Knowing full well that leveling everyone out won't work... Phat writes:
Where did I say anything about depriving anybody of anything?
...why deprive the middle class of their efforts? Phat writes:
The difference is that the working class are the ones who need the help most.
You seem to be favoring the working class. One could argue that this is just as bad as favoring the upper class (as Republicans do) or favoring the middle class (as I do)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm saying that they shouldn't expect the economic system to prop up their ability to do so. I think it is fair to expect the economic system to allow them to do so.
They are not being "down-trodden" just because they can't do it. They'd be "down-trodden" in the same way as anybody who is prevented from making their own way.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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ringo writes: Knowing full well that leveling everyone out won't work...why deprive the middle class of their efforts? You seem to be favoring the working class. One could argue that this is just as bad as favoring the upper class (as Republicans do) or favoring the middle class (as I do) I'm in favour of raising wages - but starting at the bottom. I totally get your philosophy of bringing all classes closer together. I'm just angry that the middle group gets squeezed lower. Boo Hoo indeed! NO NO NO. You guys are couching this all wrong. no, raise the middle class wages in proportion. If you are getting $18 an hour and the minimum goes from $7.25 up to $14.00, your $18 becomes $34.76. Or maybe give the 18 the same increase, up to $24.75. It's the assholes at the top, the 0.01% who should pay for all this. They can afford it. They are the ones making record +400x as much as their minimum laborers. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE BEEN STEALING OUR COUNTRY!!! Don't pitch the lower class against the middle class. That's exactly what these Rulers want you to do.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hear Hear!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Have I said otherwise?
I think it is fair to expect the economic system to allow them to do so. New Cat's Eye writes:
The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class.
They'd be "down-trodden" in the same way as anybody who is prevented from making their own way.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
Who has the authority to do that? The government can set a minimum wage, just like it can set a maximum speed on the highway, but it can't set every wage. And you can be damn sure that Phat's union would be first to oppose your plan. They want the power to negotiate more, if possible.
no, raise the middle class wages in proportion. If you are getting $18 an hour and the minimum goes from $7.25 up to $14.00, your $18 becomes $34.76. Or maybe give the 18 the same increase, up to $24.75. xongsmith writes:
I'm not the one who's doing that. You and Phat are. Don't pitch the lower class against the middle class. If the working class is buoyed up, the middle class will rise automatically.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You can't really expect the middle class to be altruistic communists who sacrifice their own goals in order to allow all of their poor oppressed comrades to climb the ladder of equality to their level, can you? Human nature does not work like that. We all want to be included in the deal.
The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class. xongsmith writes: Although I see in retrospect why the corporations do not want class unity between lower and middle. The past two contracts they offered a raise only to the top tier. There was not enough of a desire to fight for that, since the alternative would have been the elimination of seniority and an equalization of wages and benefits at the expense of the more senior people.
If you are getting $18 an hour and the minimum goes from $7.25 up to $14.00, your $18 becomes $34.76. Or maybe give the 18 the same increase, up to $24.75. It's the assholes at the top, the 0.01% who should pay for all this.ringo writes: I'm not sure if I agree. The union wants everyone to benefit from a contract offer, but only a certain percentage of members are active enough to push this through. We can usually get enough of a vote to pass or block a contract proposal, but member participation is only at best 20%. The government can set a minimum wage, just like it can set a maximum speed on the highway, but it can't set every wage. And you can be damn sure that Phat's union would be first to oppose your plan. They want the power to negotiate more, if possible. Too many members run to the company to negotiate individually for their future success, and time and time again we see them used, worn out, and transferred or quit. The companies know they can promise people decent wages provided the promise is not tied to a contract involving everybody. Additionally, the companies want to get rid of seniority so that they can force the higher wage people to do the hardest work and hire enough new people to fill in the balance....which weakens the union since we cannot promise a better deal for all if the "middle class" older workers are competing with the "working class" newer workers.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You should try reading what I write. Where have I ever suggested that the middle class should sacrifice anything?
You can't really expect the middle class to be altruistic communists who sacrifice their own goals in order to allow all of their poor oppressed comrades to climb the ladder of equality to their level, can you? Phat writes:
Are you saying that if the minimum wage went up to $14.00 and the government (somehow) mandated $24.75 for your job, your union wouldn't ask for $28.00?
I'm not sure if I agree.
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