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Author | Topic: The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But you want the middle class to be treated preferentially, don't you? You don't want to be relegated to the dirty working class, do you?
I might only add fairly but not preferentially.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
it seems to me that the only option you suggest is to ignore the middle class until the proverbial tide raises all of the boats. My beef is that the middle class should receive the same benefits the working class does.
If by "preferentially" you charge that I support a separate class from the masses of workers, I will agree. The alternative is to get nothing while the bottom raises up to the middle.(Making a new bottom)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why? My beef is that the middle class should receive the same benefits the working class does. Should healthy people get the same benefits as sick people?
Phat writes:
There will always be a bottom. What's wrong with making the bottom a little better?
The alternative is to get nothing while the bottom raises up to the middle.(Making a new bottom)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. How so?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There will always be a bottom. What's wrong with making the bottom a little better? Nothing. There will also always be a top. Why ignore your healthy climbers while attending only to the stragglers? It seems unfair for the climbers to have to struggle harder than the rest only for the right to make life better for their families. You say Boo Hoo as if you have no sympathy for a man who showed up on time every day, gave a better than average effort, and socked away his spare change for the dream of a retirement, but seemingly would applaud a man who gave everything up for himself in order that the poorer masses could achieve whatever you deem normal for them to achieve....health care, perhaps. Granted I see your point. The sick need the attention first. Let us not ignore those of us who climbed out of mediocrity and worked twice as hard to better our families rather than simply the social structure as a whole.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
You were saying that wages plus tips makes a fair income. I pointed out that all minimum wage earners don't get tips. ringo writes:
How so? Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. Forget about tips. Don't minimum wage earners deserve a living wage?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Because the stragglers need the help.
Why ignore your healthy climbers while attending only to the stragglers? Phat writes:
Again... When have I ever suggested that anybody should have to struggle harder? I'm for making the struggle easier for the ones who are struggling most.
It seems unfair for the climbers to have to struggle harder than the rest only for the right to make life better for their families. Phat writes:
The minimum wage earner has showed up on time every day too - and often at two or three jobs.
You say Boo Hoo as if you have no sympathy for a man who showed up on time every day... Phat writes:
The minimum wage earner has no "spare" change to sock away, so yes, boo hoo for the other guy who does.
...and socked away his spare change for the dream of a retirement... Phat writes:
What the hell are you talking about? Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"?
...but seemingly would applaud a man who gave everything up for himself in order that the poorer masses could achieve whatever you deem normal for them to achieve....health care, perhaps. Phat writes:
You didn't work twice as hard.
Let us not ignore those of us who climbed out of mediocrity and worked twice as hard to better our families....
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Matthew 25.
Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"? ringo writes: Matthew 25. I'm for making the struggle easier for the ones who are struggling most. You give a whole new definition to the term "Left Behind. Perhaps the Right Wing all gets raptured off to Neverland! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You'll have to be more specific. To me it looks like Matthew 25 is about sacrifices that we should be making for our fellow man.
ringp writes:
Matthew 25. Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"? Phat writes:
The Right Wing is already in Neverland. Perhaps the Right Wing all gets raptured off to Neverland! Edited by ringo, : Spellinging.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You were saying that wages plus tips makes a fair income. I was? This is the first time you mentioned fairness to me here, iirc.
I pointed out that all minimum wage earners don't get tips. I didn't realize that you were trying to say that it isn't fair for someone to make minimum wage without tips. I don't agree to that.
Forget about tips. Don't minimum wage earners deserve a living wage? No, not necessarily - it depends on the value of the work they are providing to the employer. And that is fair.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
CatSci writes: It depends on who is defining the value. it depends on the value of the work they are providing to the employer. And that is fair. Some employers believe that minimum wage is too high. From my unions point of view, it is employees...not customers...who provide every nickel of profit that a corporation is going to make. The workers define the value. So again---who gets to define the value?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I was talking about my Father, who worked twice as hard 2in order to better the lives and future of his family. There are a few of the working class who have pulled themselves up---by sheer effort---to become middle class. All I am saying is not to ignore helping them simply to help the hungriest of the working class. During the time you are helping one group, the other groups get no help. I am not a champion of pulling the bottom up to the middle if it means the middle has to keep their position all on their own with fewer resources (wage increases) that are being diverted to the bottom. I am most definitely not a Marxist.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It depends on who is defining the value. Some employers believe that minimum wage is too high. From my unions point of view, it is employees...not customers...who provide every nickel of profit that a corporation is going to make. The workers define the value. So again---who gets to define the value? It's a mutual consensual agreement. The employer defines how much value the work has to them. The worker decides if it is worth accepting or not. Negotiation could be an option. But nobody is forced by an employer to accept a wage.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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But the basic problem is that while inflation is going up, wages (for the middle and the working classes) are stagnant or even dropping.
We need stronger unions! We need to force these corporations to share more of the wealth!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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You lost me at force...
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