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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 331 of 391 (817589)
08-18-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Phat
08-18-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

I might only add fairly but not preferentially.


But you want the middle class to be treated preferentially, don't you? You don't want to be relegated to the dirty working class, do you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 12:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 12:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 332 of 391 (817591)
08-18-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
it seems to me that the only option you suggest is to ignore the middle class until the proverbial tide raises all of the boats. My beef is that the middle class should receive the same benefits the working class does.

If by "preferentially" you charge that I support a separate class from the masses of workers, I will agree. The alternative is to get nothing while the bottom raises up to the middle.(Making a new bottom)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:44 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 333 of 391 (817593)
08-18-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Phat
08-18-2017 12:35 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

My beef is that the middle class should receive the same benefits the working class does.


Why?

Should healthy people get the same benefits as sick people?

Phat writes:

The alternative is to get nothing while the bottom raises up to the middle.(Making a new bottom)


There will always be a bottom. What's wrong with making the bottom a little better?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 12:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 4:23 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 334 of 391 (817603)
08-18-2017 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly.

How so?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:38 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 335 of 391 (817617)
08-18-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:44 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
There will always be a bottom. What's wrong with making the bottom a little better?
Nothing.

There will also always be a top. Why ignore your healthy climbers while attending only to the stragglers? It seems unfair for the climbers to have to struggle harder than the rest only for the right to make life better for their families.

You say Boo Hoo as if you have no sympathy for a man who showed up on time every day, gave a better than average effort, and socked away his spare change for the dream of a retirement, but seemingly would applaud a man who gave everything up for himself in order that the poorer masses could achieve whatever you deem normal for them to achieve....health care, perhaps.

Granted I see your point. The sick need the attention first. Let us not ignore those of us who climbed out of mediocrity and worked twice as hard to better our families rather than simply the social structure as a whole.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:46 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 336 of 391 (817699)
08-19-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by New Cat's Eye
08-18-2017 2:43 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

ringo writes:

Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly.


How so?

You were saying that wages plus tips makes a fair income. I pointed out that all minimum wage earners don't get tips.

Forget about tips. Don't minimum wage earners deserve a living wage?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 1:39 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 337 of 391 (817702)
08-19-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Phat
08-18-2017 4:23 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

Why ignore your healthy climbers while attending only to the stragglers?


Because the stragglers need the help.

Phat writes:

It seems unfair for the climbers to have to struggle harder than the rest only for the right to make life better for their families.


Again... When have I ever suggested that anybody should have to struggle harder? I'm for making the struggle easier for the ones who are struggling most.

Phat writes:

You say Boo Hoo as if you have no sympathy for a man who showed up on time every day...


The minimum wage earner has showed up on time every day too - and often at two or three jobs.

Phat writes:

...and socked away his spare change for the dream of a retirement...


The minimum wage earner has no "spare" change to sock away, so yes, boo hoo for the other guy who does.

Phat writes:

...but seemingly would applaud a man who gave everything up for himself in order that the poorer masses could achieve whatever you deem normal for them to achieve....health care, perhaps.


What the hell are you talking about? Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"?

Phat writes:

Let us not ignore those of us who climbed out of mediocrity and worked twice as hard to better our families....


You didn't work twice as hard.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 11:01 AM ringo has responded
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 338 of 391 (817791)
08-20-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by ringo
08-19-2017 11:46 AM


Atheists Often Make The Best Preachers
ringo writes:

Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"?

Matthew 25.

ringo writes:

I'm for making the struggle easier for the ones who are struggling most.

Matthew 25.

You give a whole new definition to the term "Left Behind.

Perhaps the Right Wing all gets raptured off to Neverland!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 08-20-2017 2:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 339 of 391 (817813)
08-20-2017 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
08-20-2017 11:01 AM


Re: Atheists Often Make The Best Preachers
Phat writes:

ringp writes:

Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"?


Matthew 25.

You'll have to be more specific. To me it looks like Matthew 25 is about sacrifices that we should be making for our fellow man.

Phat writes:

Perhaps the Right Wing all gets raptured off to Neverland!


The Right Wing is already in Neverland.

Edited by ringo, : Spellinging.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 11:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 340 of 391 (817998)
08-22-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by ringo
08-19-2017 11:38 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
You were saying that wages plus tips makes a fair income.

I was? This is the first time you mentioned fairness to me here, iirc.

I pointed out that all minimum wage earners don't get tips.

I didn't realize that you were trying to say that it isn't fair for someone to make minimum wage without tips. I don't agree to that.

Forget about tips. Don't minimum wage earners deserve a living wage?

No, not necessarily - it depends on the value of the work they are providing to the employer. And that is fair.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 349 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 341 of 391 (818019)
08-22-2017 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 1:39 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
CatSci writes:

it depends on the value of the work they are providing to the employer. And that is fair.

It depends on who is defining the value.

Some employers believe that minimum wage is too high.

From my unions point of view, it is employees...not customers...who provide every nickel of profit that a corporation is going to make. The workers define the value.

So again---who gets to define the value?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 11:32 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 342 of 391 (818022)
08-22-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by ringo
08-19-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
I was talking about my Father, who worked twice as hard 2in order to better the lives and future of his family. There are a few of the working class who have pulled themselves up---by sheer effort---to become middle class. All I am saying is not to ignore helping them simply to help the hungriest of the working class. During the time you are helping one group, the other groups get no help. I am not a champion of pulling the bottom up to the middle if it means the middle has to keep their position all on their own with fewer resources (wage increases) that are being diverted to the bottom. I am most definitely not a Marxist.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 343 of 391 (818075)
08-23-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Phat
08-22-2017 4:27 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
It depends on who is defining the value.

Some employers believe that minimum wage is too high.

From my unions point of view, it is employees...not customers...who provide every nickel of profit that a corporation is going to make. The workers define the value.

So again---who gets to define the value?

It's a mutual consensual agreement.

The employer defines how much value the work has to them.

The worker decides if it is worth accepting or not.

Negotiation could be an option.

But nobody is forced by an employer to accept a wage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 11:47 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 344 of 391 (818083)
08-23-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
But the basic problem is that while inflation is going up, wages (for the middle and the working classes) are stagnant or even dropping.

We need stronger unions! We need to force these corporations to share more of the wealth!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 11:32 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 12:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:18 PM Phat has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 345 of 391 (818094)
08-23-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
08-23-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
You lost me at force...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Modulous, posted 08-23-2017 1:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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