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Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Debt Clock | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a pretty poor analysis. If the people always win, who loses?
The people always win, in the final analysis.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
My father used to say that people get the government they deserve. Maybe that's what you mean.
Perhaps I mean that the majority of people win.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a tall order. Not only are you promising everybody a rose garden but you're assuming that everybody will like roses. If I can get a majority to agree with me as to what constitutes fairness, this train may yet leave the station. The "fairness" that you propose seems to rest on you staying above the dregs of the working class. How is that fair to them?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Help everybody to rise. Float the bottom of the boat and the top will rise with it.
How is it fair to me to be stuck with the masses...unable to rise?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Give up your chicken. Don't expect the neighbours to pay for your Cadillac.
A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has? Phat writes:
Why do you deserve more than everyone else?
Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why do you deserve to be above the tide?
What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There isn't. Nor is there any law or principle that entitles you to something better than the next person.
You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things. Phat writes:
How are you being "forced" to accept anything? You act like you're the victim - being "forced" to accept what millions of others have. Again, what entitles you to something better?
Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it? Phat writes:
Who has suggested that?
I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why shouldn't the poor peons in the working class have the means too? What entitles you to a leg up on them?
If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I don't buy any of that. There are minimum-wage cashiers with equal ability and more experience and more length of service.
If there were factors that made my paycheck larger than theirs and my bosses paychck larger than mine they would beEducation Experience AbilityThe union would add Length Of Service Phat writes:
The problem is that the need is there whether the paycheque fills the need or not. Needs that are not met cause poorer heath, more absenteeism, poorer childcare, poorer education, more poverty, more crime, etc. My question is does need trump education and experience and ability and length of service? You don't accomplish anything by ignoring needs. Invest in the lowest paid workers and you'll save yourself a lot of tax dollars in the long run.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
They should have the same access to education.
Should they have the same means regardless of education? Phat writes:
Ambition is over-rated. I'd hire somebody who just wants to do his job well rather than somebody who wants to be the CEO before he's 30.
Regardless of ambition? Phat writes:
For the umpteenth time, you do not have more ability or strength than the minimum wage earner.
Ability? Strength?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I might propose disbanding the union. Unions have mostly outlived their usefulness. They did a lot of good for (some) working people but that should have been done by political action. So if you were the union chief officer, would you propose flat wage scales for every worker versus progressive wage scales based on length of service? Should the new guy get as much as the 14-year veteran? We've gotten to the point where union members can't afford to strike without risking their lavish lifestyle. What good is the right to strike if you lose your third car and your boat?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
I've been a union member and I've been on strike. Try paying all of your bills on strike pay. Nobody I knew voted to strike and everybody I knew was praying for the strike to end. The strike was about as effective as shaking your fist at a hurricane. There was never any doubt about the outcome.
That does not appear to be a problem that Phat has. Perhaps that is not the issue for a substantial number of his peers.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But it doesn't work. Back in the seventies, our construction unions negotiated their little hearts out to get wage parity with Alberta. Their argument was, "What keeps workers from moving to Alberta if the wages are higher there?" They finally got wage parity and five minutes later the construction unions in Alberta were saying, "We have higher living costs than Saskatchewan so we need a raise." The thing is, the union is the best way to negotiate raises. As long as you're negotiating for higher wages, you're just chasing your tail.
Phat writes:
No it isn't. Your argument is that you deserve more than the masses. If you cared at all about the masses, you'd be campaigning for a minimum wage hike.
Our argument is that the masses deserve a better pay rate. Phat writes:
Yeah, to hell with equality. Next thing you know the working class will want the vote.
If we all simply wait for the bottom to catch up, we will all be on the bottom, swimming fervently towards the surface. Phat writes:
It's too late. You're already in the pool. You love buying cheap goods from China and Indonesia and Bangladesh but where are you going to sell your own goods if the masses can't afford them?
... nobody wants to get thrown in the pool with global labor values, which are far less than what most Americans make.
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