Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 4/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 114 (819737)
09-14-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
09-13-2017 7:43 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:
The people always win, in the final analysis.
That's a pretty poor analysis. If the people always win, who loses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 7:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 1:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 114 (819947)
09-15-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
09-14-2017 1:24 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:
Perhaps I mean that the majority of people win.
My father used to say that people get the government they deserve. Maybe that's what you mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 1:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 114 (819960)
09-15-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:
If I can get a majority to agree with me as to what constitutes fairness, this train may yet leave the station.
That's a tall order. Not only are you promising everybody a rose garden but you're assuming that everybody will like roses.
The "fairness" that you propose seems to rest on you staying above the dregs of the working class. How is that fair to them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 91 of 114 (819986)
09-15-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:27 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:
How is it fair to me to be stuck with the masses...unable to rise?
Help everybody to rise. Float the bottom of the boat and the top will rise with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 114 (819988)
09-15-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:
A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?
But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has?
Give up your chicken. Don't expect the neighbours to pay for your Cadillac.
Phat writes:
Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?
Why do you deserve more than everyone else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 95 of 114 (820083)
09-16-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:38 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:
What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?
Why do you deserve to be above the tide?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-16-2017 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 114 (820102)
09-16-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
09-16-2017 12:10 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things.
There isn't. Nor is there any law or principle that entitles you to something better than the next person.
Phat writes:
Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it?
How are you being "forced" to accept anything? You act like you're the victim - being "forced" to accept what millions of others have. Again, what entitles you to something better?
Phat writes:
I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however.
Who has suggested that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-16-2017 12:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:53 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 99 of 114 (820202)
09-17-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-17-2017 2:53 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it.
Why shouldn't the poor peons in the working class have the means too? What entitles you to a leg up on them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 102 of 114 (820213)
09-17-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-17-2017 3:10 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
If there were factors that made my paycheck larger than theirs and my bosses paychck larger than mine they would be
Education
Experience
Ability
The union would add
Length Of Service
I don't buy any of that. There are minimum-wage cashiers with equal ability and more experience and more length of service.
Phat writes:
My question is does need trump education and experience and ability and length of service?
The problem is that the need is there whether the paycheque fills the need or not. Needs that are not met cause poorer heath, more absenteeism, poorer childcare, poorer education, more poverty, more crime, etc.
You don't accomplish anything by ignoring needs. Invest in the lowest paid workers and you'll save yourself a lot of tax dollars in the long run.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 114 (820215)
09-17-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
09-17-2017 3:14 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
Should they have the same means regardless of education?
They should have the same access to education.
Phat writes:
Regardless of ambition?
Ambition is over-rated. I'd hire somebody who just wants to do his job well rather than somebody who wants to be the CEO before he's 30.
Phat writes:
Ability? Strength?
For the umpteenth time, you do not have more ability or strength than the minimum wage earner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 106 of 114 (820217)
09-17-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
09-17-2017 3:40 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
So if you were the union chief officer, would you propose flat wage scales for every worker versus progressive wage scales based on length of service? Should the new guy get as much as the 14-year veteran?
I might propose disbanding the union. Unions have mostly outlived their usefulness. They did a lot of good for (some) working people but that should have been done by political action.
We've gotten to the point where union members can't afford to strike without risking their lavish lifestyle. What good is the right to strike if you lose your third car and your boat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 109 of 114 (820253)
09-18-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
09-17-2017 3:56 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
NoNukes writes:
That does not appear to be a problem that Phat has. Perhaps that is not the issue for a substantial number of his peers.
I've been a union member and I've been on strike. Try paying all of your bills on strike pay. Nobody I knew voted to strike and everybody I knew was praying for the strike to end. The strike was about as effective as shaking your fist at a hurricane. There was never any doubt about the outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:53 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 111 of 114 (820260)
09-18-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
09-18-2017 11:53 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
The thing is, the union is the best way to negotiate raises.
But it doesn't work. Back in the seventies, our construction unions negotiated their little hearts out to get wage parity with Alberta. Their argument was, "What keeps workers from moving to Alberta if the wages are higher there?" They finally got wage parity and five minutes later the construction unions in Alberta were saying, "We have higher living costs than Saskatchewan so we need a raise."
As long as you're negotiating for higher wages, you're just chasing your tail.
Phat writes:
Our argument is that the masses deserve a better pay rate.
No it isn't. Your argument is that you deserve more than the masses. If you cared at all about the masses, you'd be campaigning for a minimum wage hike.
Phat writes:
If we all simply wait for the bottom to catch up, we will all be on the bottom, swimming fervently towards the surface.
Yeah, to hell with equality. Next thing you know the working class will want the vote.
Phat writes:
... nobody wants to get thrown in the pool with global labor values, which are far less than what most Americans make.
It's too late. You're already in the pool. You love buying cheap goods from China and Indonesia and Bangladesh but where are you going to sell your own goods if the masses can't afford them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024