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Author | Topic: Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh good Planned Parenthood may have acquired some sense, but I wouldn't count on it meaning they encourage thinking of it as a human being and, or have stopped emphasizing abortion as the best solujtion.
I'm not going to continue this argument, your usual hairsplitting nitpicking irrelevant nonsense won't yield to reason.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Describing how you feel and giving your opinion is not evidence.
Getting back to the topic, how do you know whether evangelicals were wrong back when they supported abortion or now when they don't? --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That is not what I did. I gave real evidence. Idiot.
How do I know evangelicals were wrpmg?. What you mean is "Who are you to tell anybody they are wrong?" If you don't see the reasoning, forget it.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Oh good Planned Parenthood may have acquired some sense, but I wouldn't count on it meaning they encourage thinking of it as a human being,... Whether or not a fetus is a human being is unknowable. Planned Parenthood takes no position on this question.
...or have stopped emphasizing abortion as the best solution. Planned Parenthood does not emphasize abortion as the best solution. This is from their Considering Abortion page:
quote: You have a remarkable number of misimpressions about Planned Parenthood.
I'm not going to continue this argument, your usual hairsplitting nitpicking irrelevant nonsense won't yield to reason. Gee, what a surprise, cast insults and abandon discussion. Who would ever have expected that? But whether abortion is the taking of a human life isn't the topic. The topic is the evangelical abortion flip-flop. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: That is not what I did. I gave real evidence. Idiot. You gave no evidence. You're doing what you always do, claim you've already provided evidence when you haven't.
How do I know evangelicals were wrong?. What you mean is "Who are you to tell anybody they are wrong?" If you don't see the reasoning, forget it. The question could be asked in at least a couple ways. One way is to ask what evidence and reasoning you apply when comparing the relative validity of the opposite evangelical stances on abortion. Another way is to ask what evidence and reasoning came into play as evangelicals changed their stance on abortion. --Percy
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: And it does seem to me that most of the difficulties arise in people's minds because it is not thought of as a human life. Yes, I agree. Many people don't agree with your opinion because it is clearly not a human life during the early stages of pregnancy.
I don't see how you can deny that genetically the fertilized egg is human. If nothing interferes it will inexorably grow into a human being and everybody knows that without getting scientific about it. Let's focus on this.Because this is obviously not true. Many things have to interfere after conception for an egg and sperm to grow into a human.If nothing interfere's, the egg and sperm (and possibly even the mother) will die. They need resources - nourishment, care and time. How much nourishment?How much care? How much time? How do we know when "enough" of any of these happens? These are the questions we don't have answers to right now.These are the questions that require answers in order to truthfully make any claim about where a "line" could be drawn. Without those resources, the sperm and egg will simply die - as many sperms and eggs do.Glossing-over of this implies that you're not focused on figuring out the truth of this matter - it implies you're willing to simply say anything in order to get anyone to agree with you. I don't care about agreeing with you.I care about the truth of this important issue. Perhaps the truth will lead to me agreeing with you - I don't care.Perhaps the truth will lead to me disagreeing with you - I don't care. What I care about is understanding the truth and reality of this important issue as much as possible.
But since you do deny it, and you even deny its humanness at twelve weeks when most of us see a living baby there I don't deny humanness at twelve weeks. I question it. Because it isn't obvious. And you haven't offered anything that makes it clear. It's not your fault, I don't think such information is available to us now (possibly ever?)
How about a month before its due date? Two months? Three months? and so on. Until you find the point at which you definitely don't think of it as human and definitely think abortion is a reasonable solution to what you regard as a difficult situation? I know that at 2 weeks after conception it's not a human.I know that when it can survive on it's own without being attached to machines or the mother - then it is a human. Anywhere in between, I don't know. Might be. Might not be. I don't have answers to the required questions either. I am, however, highly confident that any "line" would not be applicable to every situation... because it's obvious that different living things grow at different rates and gain traits at different times. For some babies the line may be closer to conception. For others it may be closer to birth. Does sucking a thumb mean it's human? I don't think so... but even if it did, not all of them suck their thumbs after 12 weeks. Some will never suck their thumb. To figure out these questions we will require much more information than we have available to us right now. It does highly imply though - that anyone offering any "line" anywhere in the non-obvious stages - is completely wrong.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Many people don't agree with your opinion because it is clearly not a human life during the early stages of pregnancy. OK, so you are going by its appearsnce. But if nothing interferes with its growth, it will grow to be a human being and we all know this, and this is the evidence that it is human at conception. "interfere" means opposes its natural growth, the way you are using it is not interference, it's just the natural environment in which it grows that is taken for granted in what I'm saying. Under normal circumstances it will grow into a clearly recognizable human being and we all know this and that's the evidence but I guess you can make your argument based on appearance.
I don't deny humanness at twelve weeks. I question it. Because it isn't obvious. It's based on the ultrasound videos taken at that time in many pregnancies, which I have described. It is indeed obvious. The entire form is there from head to toes on the feet and fingers on the hands. You can tell the sex at that age, It keeps moving around, it's alive and it is a baby. It has a lot of developing to do but it is obviously a baby at that age, there is no question. There are videos of it at You Tube but most aren't as clear as the ones I saw of my two grandsons so I didn't pick one to link here.
I know that at 2 weeks after conception it's not a human. So are you saying yhou want to draw the line at the point it looks to you like a human? Do you know what age that would be? But my argument is that although it doesn't yet look like a human being it is human because we know it's got the DNA that will cause it to develop into a human and if we just leave it alone to develop normally it wilol become a human being. It's already got all the genetic stuff, and if everything is normal all we have to do is leave it alone. But if you want to argue that it has to LOOK like a human being to be considered a human being I guess you can make thjat argument and define where it changes into a human being. Somewhere between say maybe eleven and thirteen weeks?
I am, however, highly confident that any "line" would not be applicable to every situation... because it's obvious that different living things grow at different rates and gain traits at different times. Well, not really. One twelve-weeks ultrasound looks pretty much like another, all the same body parts apparent including toes and fingers, the sex identifiable, the baby moving around, and you can hear the heartbeat, Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: OK, so you are going by its appearance. No. In fact, I'm more concerned with the mental development. Some babies are born without certain limbs due to a handicap of one kind or another. These babies do not have the "entire human form" at any time. However, they are still just as "human" as I am as far as I'm concerned.
"interfere" means opposes its natural growth, the way you are using it is not interference, it's just the natural environment in which it grows that is taken for granted in what I'm saying. ... But my argument is that although it doesn't yet look like a human being it is human because we know it's got the DNA that will cause it to develop into a human and if we just leave it alone to develop normally it will become a human being. It's already got all the genetic stuff, and if everything is normal all we have to do is leave it alone. "Interfere" means "interfere."You can't "leave it alone" it will die. Why do I have to take something for granted and guess that when you use certain words you mean them in a special-case sort of way?Why not just describe the reality of it - that the baby requires resources in order to grow into a human. I agree that given the required resources and normal environment it will grow into a human.Just like a separated egg and sperm - given the required resources and normal environment - will grow into a human. Just like a man and a woman - given the required resources and normal environment - will eventually have sex and produce a baby that will grow into a human (proof - all of human history.) The question isn't about "is this something that will grow into a human if we give it the normal resources and environment."That question is easy and it's answered. The answer is yes. This question, however, is useless in determining the morality of an abortion since this same, identical "yes" applies to so many previous conditions (like a man and a woman just being together). The question is "is this a human?"Where 'this' is a developing baby from many stages that are clearly not human into many stages that are clearly human. That's the question that matters - if you're interested in searching for the truth of this issue.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Yes, I've seen many.
So - how do you know if this is human or not? How much brain development has occurred at this point?If a twelve-week old baby sucks it's thumb, is it known if this is a reflex/accident or if the baby is actually choosing to do so and controlling it's thumb using it's brain? If a fully grown human's brain ceases to function autonomously - only reflex actions occur, but nothing controlled by the brain - we call this "brain dead." And sometimes kill the fully grown human (remove them from life-support.) How would something like that apply to a developing baby?When does a developing baby's brain get past what we would call 'brain-dead' on a fully grown human? Is it possible to know this point from a scan? I'm not saying that's "the line" that should be used.But I am saying it sounds like a good place to start. Much better than when something merely takes on human physical form. Many handicapped babies will never take on an entire "human form" - yet I still consider them just as human as myself. I think that using "physical form" as an indication that something "is human" is an attempt to appeal to emotion and get people to agree with you just because you want them to agree with you. Emotionally - a man and a woman who haven't had sex yet are just as close to creating a human as a human-shaped-shell-with-no-brain would be.That's not a very good judgement to use for considering the morality involved in ending a human life - if the "human life" isn't there, it doesn't matter what it looks like.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think it was Heathen who said it has brain waves at this age, which shows some brain development. I'd guess it is possible to know when brain function develops, also when the heart begins beating, all those developmental things.
Isn't there pretty clearly a big difference between a brain-dead adult who we know is never going to come back barring a miracle, and a normally developing fetus whose brain is in the process of growing and will certainly become a fully functioning human brain if we don't kill it? No, I present the image as objective evidence of its humanness, not as an appeal to emotion, because I personally find it compelling evidence in itself that it is human, though yes I would suppose most others do too -- particularly of course because it is ACTING alive, moving etc. If it was in fact brain-dead we're not talking about normal development. I know some babies are born without brains which is a horrible tragedy but I'm trying to keep the focus on normal development. If it was truly dead and not going to grow any more, it would be stillborn and that is something else, but we're talking about normal development from stage to stage. But OK you want to define its humanness by brain function or other function rather than appearance or form? So are we still talking about finding the point before which you could advocate aborting it because it isn't human, and after which you couldn't? I don't know when particular functions develop though I suppose the information is available. Do you think you could define the point I'm asking about? What functions would have to be present or absent?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I' m pointing out what the words mean. You're just parroting rhetoric without any understanding of the implications. Just read what I've actually said and stop putting words in my mouth. The fact is that nobody considers the fetus fully human. That's the point of the topic. I'm saying that you don't consider the fetus fully human - despite your unthinking rhetoric - because you don't propose to give the fetus the same protection that we give to humans. You apparently want abortion to be illegal but you don't want to deal with the perpetrators - i.e. the women. You are at least humane enough to agree that they should not be punished - but what you refuse to think about is the implication that that diminishes the humanity of the fetus. Try pulling your head out of the right-wing phrasebook for once and think about what you're saying.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm sick of the sophistry and the mindless stupid accusations.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Then stop doing it. Instead of just blathering the same old rhetoric that we've been hearing from your crowd for decades, blow the dust off your brain and think through your own position for a change. I'm sick of the sophistry and the mindless stupid accusations.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: You and Tangle are both refusing to recognize the uncertainties. You're both declaring that there are definite answers to what at heart are unanswerable questions. No. Absolutely not. I have said that there are uncertainties and unanswerable questions. The big issue is how do you deal with that fact that this is life not science or mathematics. You can’t simply say it’s unanswerable, you have to make a decision. How do you decide? I think you start with your honest feelings and I would label anyone a psychopath that didn’t feel that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible. Can you at least admit that?
When do hills become mountains. When do harbors become seas? When does a fetus become a human being ? What should be clear to everyone, but apparently isn't, is that no one knows the answers to these questions because they don't have answers. What such questions tell us is that not all questions have answers Wrong again. It is abundantly clear that there are no ‘answers’ but you still need to decide. So how do you do it? What do you feel is right. I think you are avoiding your feelings. And that you’re avoiding speaking of them.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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