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Author Topic:   The race issue
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2588 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 106 of 134 (560120)
05-13-2010 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by onifre
05-13-2010 11:15 AM


Re: Melanin variations
But then in this case, what you quoted from dennis780 in message 101 isn't inaccurate (although not very specific):

quote:
White people have the lowest levels of melanin, and black have the most.

So he had never said it was increase or decrease in one specific type of melanin either.

And in fact, your explanation here doesn't fit very well with what you had said in message 101:

quote:
What gives human's their skin pigmentation is different types of melanin; it has nothing to do with more or less melanin.

Which had given the wrong impression that skin color was the result of what type of melanin you had. If you had 'type A', you were that color. If you had 'type B', you were that color, etc.etc.

When in fact it is more like you got 'type A', you are that color. You got 'type A' and 'type B', you are that color. You got 'type A' and B and C, you are that color. etc.etc.

Anyhow, details.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 11:15 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 12:47 PM slevesque has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 107 of 134 (560126)
05-13-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by slevesque
05-13-2010 12:05 PM


Re: Melanin variations
Then I guess a more specific explanation from dennis is need. What did he mean by "lowest levels" of melanin.

We all have same amount or "levels", just not the same type. I don't see why "lowest" or "more" is needed. It would be more accurate to say that we have different types of melanin that cause different variations in skin pigmentation.

Just to note, these different types of melanin also vary the color of hair and eyes, so its not just skin that melanin effects. Also, individual people can have a combination of the different types so they'll vary in not only skin but eye color, hair, etc. A black person can have the dark skin but also have light eyes, produced by having different combinations of melanin types. And vice versa; white people can have different combos producing unique variations in their skin, eyes, hair, etc.

To me, it is not accurate nor suffice to simply say, white people have the lowest levels and black people have the most. I was hoping that dennis clarified what he meant though.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 12:05 PM slevesque has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 2:56 PM onifre has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 134 (560154)
05-13-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by onifre
05-13-2010 12:47 PM


Re: Melanin variations
I was hoping that dennis clarified what he meant though.

Re-read what he wrote...

He was talking about the whole "only a loss of information" thing. If white people did have less melanin and that was a reduction in information then Adam and Eve would have been black because they woulda had so much more melanin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 12:47 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 3:32 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 116 by dennis780, posted 05-13-2010 10:00 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 109 of 134 (560166)
05-13-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
05-13-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Melanin variations
If white people did have less melanin

But they don't...that's the point. We all have the same amount of melanin, just different types that produce different features.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 3:36 PM onifre has responded
 Message 112 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 6:41 PM onifre has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 134 (560167)
05-13-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by onifre
05-13-2010 3:32 PM


Re: Melanin variations
If white people did have less melanin

But they don't...that's the point. We all have the same amount of melanin, just different types that produce different features.

Oh, sure, he's just plain old wrong, but what he meant seemed to be fairly clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 3:32 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 111 of 134 (560190)
05-13-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by New Cat's Eye
05-13-2010 3:36 PM


Re: Melanin variations
Oh, sure, he's just plain old wrong, but what he meant seemed to be fairly clear.

Yeah, that's what I though too, but Wounded King and Slev threw me off with their replies. I thought I made a mistake. I only know of this subject from a book I read about 2 years ago, so WK's opinion esp. I would listen to.

- Oni


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 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2588 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 112 of 134 (560202)
05-13-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by onifre
05-13-2010 3:32 PM


Re: Melanin variations
We all have the same amount of melanin

That's the information I'm not sure about. Is that right ? Are you sure it's not a mixt of both different types and different concentrations ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 3:32 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 113 of 134 (560211)
05-13-2010 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by slevesque
05-13-2010 6:41 PM


Re: Melanin variations
That's the information I'm not sure about. Is that right ? Are you sure it's not a mixt of both different types and different concentrations ?

Shit now I'm confused myself.

Working from pure memory serves me no good, so this is currently what I could find: Melanogenesis

quote:
The difference in skin color between fair people and dark people is due not to the number (quantity) of melanocytes in their skin, but to the melanocytes' level of activity (quantity and relative amounts of eumelanin and pheomelanin). This process is under hormonal control, including the MSH and ACTH peptides that are produced from the precursor proopiomelanocortin.
Albinos lack an enzyme called tyrosinase. Tyrosinase is required for melanocytes to produce melanin from the amino acid tyrosine.

Although human beings generally possess a similar concentration of melanocytes in their skin, the melanocytes in some individuals and ethnic groups more frequently or less frequently express the melanin-producing genes, thereby conferring a greater or lesser concentration of skin melanin.


My understand is, it's the different amount or mixture of types of polymers (such as Eumelanin, Pheomelanin or Neuromelanin) that varies the skin pigmentation. So its not that you have more melanin or less melanin, its that you have more of a certain kind of polymer.

Maybe a better way to say it is, we all have the same amount of melanocytes just different polymers. Maybe?

If someone with more knowledge on this cares to explain it I'm more than willing to be shown where I am wrong.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by slevesque, posted 05-13-2010 6:41 PM slevesque has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2043 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 114 of 134 (560212)
05-13-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by onifre
05-13-2010 7:08 PM


Re: Melanin variations
I think you have an almost equally over simplified approach as Denis here. Having the same number of melanocytes means nothing, they only produce the melanin so the same number of melanocytes doesn't mean the same amount of melanin.

The only well characterised genetic determinant of skin colour at the moment is the types of Melanocortin1receptor (MC1R) an individual has, and there are over 60 identified human MC1R alleles (Rees, 2004).

The article I cite above states ...

Melanin is biosynthesized within melanosomes that, when mature, are passed to the surrounding keratinocytes. Visible skin color is therefore the result of the melanin in keratinocytes but is synthesized in melanocytes.

...

Studies of epidermal melanins (rather than hair melanins) are few—because they require skin biopsies—but suggest that those with black skin have 2–3-fold as much melanin as Northern Europeans ...

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by onifre, posted 05-13-2010 7:08 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 115 of 134 (560223)
05-13-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Wounded King
05-13-2010 7:18 PM


Re: Melanin variations
I think you have an almost equally over simplified approach as Denis here

Damn, and here I was thinking I made it too complex.

Having the same number of melanocytes means nothing, they only produce the melanin so the same number of melanocytes doesn't mean the same amount of melanin.

Yeah I think I get that now having read it over a few times. So would it be more accurate to say we all have the same amount of melanocytes, we just have different active polymers that result in different skin pigmentation?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Wounded King, posted 05-13-2010 7:18 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2724 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 116 of 134 (560235)
05-13-2010 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
05-13-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Melanin variations
"He was talking about the whole "only a loss of information" thing. If white people did have less melanin and that was a reduction in information then Adam and Eve would have been black because they woulda had so much more melanin."

This is exactly the only point I was trying to get across. If creation is true, then God is the source of all information, so information could only be lost over time. Though mutations can occur, it would be the result of pre-existing information.

Adam and eve would have been black.

I hope everyone did not read too much into my generalization. I was more interested in making the point that useful information cannot be gained over time. Sorry.

Dennis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-13-2010 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Coyote, posted 05-13-2010 10:06 PM dennis780 has not yet responded
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 117 of 134 (560236)
05-13-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by dennis780
05-13-2010 10:00 PM


Re: Melanin variations
I was more interested in making the point that useful information cannot be gained over time. Sorry.

I'm sorry as well.

That is a religious belief that is not confirmed by scientific research. In fact, we see just the opposite.

Over the millions of years we see all manner of change, including new information.

You may choose to disbelieve this for religious reasons, but that doesn't make it so.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by dennis780, posted 05-13-2010 10:00 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 118 of 134 (560242)
05-13-2010 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by dennis780
05-13-2010 10:00 PM


Re: Melanin variations
If white people did have less melanin and that was a reduction in information then Adam and Eve would have been black because they woulda had so much more melanin."

Why are you choosing to stop at homo-sapiens? Adam and Eve would have been hominids. And why stop at hominids? we can keep going to the common ancestor of all mammals, or all vertibrates. Right?

Hominids weren't "black" homo-sapiens, were around much earlier and had different amounts of melanin. This screws your whole theory up. The Biblical creation is clearly disproven by these facts.

If creation is true, then God is the source of all information, so information could only be lost over time.

So you're saying *if* YOU'RE version of creation (the christian version I'm assuming) is true...then Adam and Eve were homo-sapiens and black. Ok

To quote lyx2no: "*If* worms had machine guns robins wouldn't eff with 'em."

If we allow for *if's* nothing is impossible. What does the evidence point to, that's the only thing that matters.

I hope everyone did not read too much into my generalization. I was more interested in making the point that useful information cannot be gained over time. Sorry.

No worries. Your ignorance on the subject helped my ignorance on the subject. Thanks.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by dennis780, posted 05-13-2010 10:00 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

    
misha
Member (Idle past 2576 days)
Posts: 69
From: Atlanta
Joined: 02-04-2010


Message 119 of 134 (560311)
05-14-2010 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by dennis780
05-13-2010 10:00 PM


Re: Melanin variations
dennis780 writes:

Though mutations can occur, it would be the result of pre-existing information

Are you saying that the cells that experienced this mutation had pre-existing information that caused the mutation, that all of this information is front-loaded? Or that the mutation changed the existing information into something different?

If front-loading, what evidence do you have?

If into something different, isn't this the exact thing you are arguing against?

In your view, somehow Adam and Eve had the information to construct all 60 alleles of MC1R. Then once again, information for all 60 of these alleles just happened to be found in Noah's 3 sons and their daughters. That is a lot of front-loading for which there is no evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by dennis780, posted 05-13-2010 10:00 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2724 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 120 of 134 (563720)
06-06-2010 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Coyote
05-12-2010 7:52 PM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
"Pure nonsense. There is just as much carbon 14 at the north and south poles as anywhere else -- it's in the atmosphere!

And C14 dating is not a parent-daughter dating method."

I'm refering to the NEWER forms of Parent-Daughter dating, poopdink. Such as K-Ar, Ar-Ar, etc.

Carbon levels are constantly changing, since the van allen belt is constantly changing (the belt that traps radiation around the earth...but you knew that right?).

And since most all animals get their source of carbon from plants, any area where plants to not exist, would not take carbon from the atomsphere, giving any animals in these areas false readings. This is also true with marine life, and should be called into question as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Coyote, posted 05-12-2010 7:52 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Coyote, posted 06-06-2010 4:44 PM dennis780 has responded

    
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