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Author Topic:   Life on other Planets?
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 136 of 160 (602995)
02-02-2011 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bolder-dash
12-02-2010 11:32 PM


John Ray
I was re-reading John Ray's The Wisdom of God Manifested in the Works of the Creation and sighing for the days (1691) when creationism was something more than mere denial of well-established facts.

Anyway, he has this to say about life on other planets:

That the number of corporeal Creatures is unmeasurably great, and known only to the Creator himself; may thus probably be collected: First of all, the Numbers of fix’d Stars is on all hands acknowledg’d to be next to infinite: Secondly, Every fix’d Star, in the now-receiv’d Hypothesis, is a Sun or Sun-like Body, and in like manner incircled with a Chorus of Planets moving about it [...] Thirdly, each of these Planets is in all likelihood furnished with as great Variety of corporeal Creatures, animate and inanimate, as the earth is, and all as different in Nature as they are in Place from the Terrestrial, and from each other.

He does not state why he thinks this likely.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1701
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 137 of 160 (603005)
02-02-2011 7:08 AM


So the millennia go by and we are finally able to zoom about the galaxy with ease. What is the likelihood that any intelligent species that we encounter would be friendly? Would you send the military to meet them or the ambassadors?
Replies to this message:
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frako
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Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 138 of 160 (603009)
02-02-2011 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by ProtoTypical
02-02-2011 7:08 AM


What is the likelihood that any intelligent species that we encounter would be friendly?

Well if we use ourselves as a model for what would likely happen you can look at what happened in America Africa or any other culture that met a very advanced culture. So it is probably more likely they would not be so friendly and we would probably end up on an intergalactic slave market.

Well if they would contact earth i would send the ambassadors because a civilization that mastered star travel would mop up the earths whole military in a matter of hours.

edit: added

And if a very friendly and good willing civilization knows about us and did some background studies on us it would not land on earth anytime soon. Why because shit would hit the fan hard if they come and land the worlds fundies would go screaming they are daemons deceivers bla bla bla and ours is the only god he dint make them their made from satans own flesh attaaack ......

And if they land and say praise Jesus the son of god the Muslims will freak out and declare jihad, if they come and say praise Allah the Christian creos would freak out and declare holly ware ......

So if there are good civilizations out there we will not be seeing them anytime soon.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 139 of 160 (603016)
02-02-2011 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by ProtoTypical
02-02-2011 7:08 AM


Would you send the military to meet them or the ambassadors?

Neither. I'd send scientists.


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 140 of 160 (603017)
02-02-2011 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by frako
02-02-2011 9:00 AM


Hi, Frako.

frako writes:

Well if we use ourselves as a model for what would likely happen you can look at what happened in America Africa or any other culture that met a very advanced culture. So it is probably more likely they would not be so friendly and we would probably end up on an intergalactic slave market.

Why do people always think it makes sense to compare advanced aliens to 19th century European imperialists?
Are most people today like 19th century European imperialists?
Do most advanced nations today attempt to conquer and enslave less advanced peoples?

Surely you don't think that an alien species advanced enough in their knowledge of the universe to master the principles of spaceflight would be so primitive in their mindset as to think like 19th century imperialists:

Take up the Alien's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

-alien Rudyard Kipling


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 141 of 160 (603020)
02-02-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by hooah212002
02-02-2011 10:16 AM


Hi, Hooah.

Dogmafood writes:

hooah212002 writes:

Would you send the military to meet them or the ambassadors?

Neither. I'd send scientists.

What would the scientists do? Study the aliens?

Surely we have to believe that the aliens would be the more savvy of the two parties, just because they're the ones who figured out how to cross the stars to get here. Thus, we'd expect their efforts to study us to bear more fruit than our efforts to study them.

So, it would seem to make more sense to leave the "studying" to the aliens, and send people who know or can figure out how to respond to diplomatic or interpersonal communications instead.

Undoubtedly, we would want some kind of mixed team. Perhaps a biologist or two could provide insights, and somebody from the military should be on-site just in case; but the leader and primary movers of the team should surely be diplomats of some kind.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 142 of 160 (603023)
02-02-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 10:51 AM


What would the scientists do? Study the aliens?

No, that wasn't what I was implying. Scientists, IMO, would not have an "agenda", so to speak. Given the two choices that Dogmafood provided: the military would make it look like we were either afraid or were trying to be confrontational and ambassadors (again, in my opinion) would have an agenda for their particular country as we don't seem to, as of yet, have any worldwide ambassadors that are looking out for the best interests of the human race. Scientists, on the other hand, ARE looking out for the best interests of humans and the planet as a whole.

and send people who know or can figure out how to respond to diplomatic or interpersonal communications instead.

That is also a good point that perhaps I didn't take into consideration.

Undoubtedly, we would want some kind of mixed team. Perhaps a biologist or two could provide insights, and somebody from the military should be on-site just in case; but the leader and primary movers of the team should surely be diplomats of some kind.

Good idea....but whose military?


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 143 of 160 (603024)
02-02-2011 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 10:31 AM


Bluejay writes:

Why do people always think it makes sense to compare advanced aliens to 19th century European imperialists?


Because the 19th century wasn't very long ago in our evolutionary history. It seems likely that any aliens we encounter will still have some of the predatory instincts of their ancestors.

We did put a man on the moon a few days after segregation ended.


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 144 of 160 (603055)
02-02-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by hooah212002
02-02-2011 10:58 AM


Hi, Hooah.

hooah212002 writes:

No, that wasn't what I was implying. Scientists, IMO, would not have an "agenda", so to speak.

I see. I don't know how correct the conclusion is (I know a lot of scientists), but the reasoning makes sense: we're looking for a "neutral" party.

Also, I seem to have misread Dogmafood: I was responding as if it was a party of aliens landing here (which would answer your questions about whose military and whose diplomats by virtue of where the aliens touched down).

Us going to them changes things: in that case, we would obviously not want any one party or one department of society to dominate the mission, because we'd need contingency plans. Also, in this case, scientists make a whole lot more sense.

I'll try to read more carefully in the future.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 145 of 160 (603057)
02-02-2011 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ProtoTypical
02-02-2011 7:08 AM


Would you send the military to meet them or the ambassadors?

I'd send cats. Let them try and figure that one out.


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 146 of 160 (603059)
02-02-2011 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
02-02-2011 10:59 AM


Hi, Ringo.

Ringo writes:

Bluejay writes:

Why do people always think it makes sense to compare advanced aliens to 19th century European imperialists?

Because the 19th century wasn't very long ago in our evolutionary history.

But it was quite a while ago in our societal history. The mindset of people has changed a lot since then: slavers and racists and imperialists are no longer the drivers of society these days.

Why do we think they're going to be the drivers of alien societies that have presumably made more technological and societal progress than we have?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 147 of 160 (603066)
02-02-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 2:31 PM


Bluejay writes:

But it was quite a while ago in our societal history. The mindset of people has changed a lot since then: slavers and racists and imperialists are no longer the drivers of society these days.


Civilization is a pretty thin veneer. We still have horrific crimes. We still fight wars for reasons as stupid as they ever were.

I don't see tribal attitudes disappearing just because the tribe gets bigger. We fight our neighbours until they join us. Then we fight the next neighbourhood together until they join us. Then we fight the next community and the next district and the next nation. I don't see why we'd stop at fighting the next planet.

We developed primitive spacecraft when racism was still a significant driver of society. I don't think it's safe to assume that other evolved lifeforms would be different.


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
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Taq
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 148 of 160 (603068)
02-02-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 2:31 PM


But it was quite a while ago in our societal history. The mindset of people has changed a lot since then: slavers and racists and imperialists are no longer the drivers of society these days.

Why do we think they're going to be the drivers of alien societies that have presumably made more technological and societal progress than we have?

Many arguments could be made that slavers, racists, and imperialists are still the drivers. The difference is that we have become very good at hiding those facts. Our economies are still based on cheap labor and access to resources even if that means toppling the governments of other states. Rubber is derived from cheap petroleum from countries that we threaten with invasion. The rubber is made into shoes that in other countries by people who work in terrible conditions for wages that no American would accept. Is there less of an outcry because they are not caucasians? Possibly.

The class system is still thriving today as it was in previous centuries. What has changed is marketing. We have made slavery and imperialism more palatable, but we still rely on it.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 149 of 160 (603169)
02-03-2011 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 10:31 AM


Why do people always think it makes sense to compare advanced aliens to 19th century European imperialists?

Becauzse its roughly the only comparrison we got if they are dumb, poor,..... we exploit them africa is still being exploited for its natural resources,. The native americans live in reservations while this was their continent, my guess is the aborigines are not faring much better. Its the only comparrison we got, tough they could be totaly different we just do not know the best guess would be comparing them to what we know.

Are most people today like 19th century European imperialists?

No but close hiering les fortunates immigrants so you can exploit their work power for a few bucks. Sure we do not enslave them anymore because we got things like human rights but if the subjects are less intelligent then humans say the intelligence of a cow they get to live in a space to small for them to turn they get feed nasty shit so they can get fat real fast and then they get killed and slaughtered. So what do you think a smarter race would do to us a race that would regard our intelligence the same way we regard the intelligence of a cow.

Do most advanced nations today attempt to conquer and enslave less advanced peoples?

No most of the relay less advanced nations are already conquered and being exploited, the slightly less advanced ones are getting their turn of ass raping now.


This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 150 of 160 (603192)
02-03-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
02-02-2011 3:44 PM


Hi, Taq.

Taq writes:

Our economies are still based on cheap labor and access to resources even if that means toppling the governments of other states.

I think this is an overstatement. Sure, nobody's got a clean nose anymore, but we're not simply sailing around the world and conquering any inconvenient nation that we can finance an invasion of, as we were in previous centuries.

We no longer have a mindset that certain groups of people are inferior savages that are meant for servitude and little else. Even if you don't believe that racism and slavery are gone, you have to admit that we've made a lot of progress in this area over the past two or three decades.

The "slavery" that remains is largely confined to taking advantage of people who voluntarily work cheap, or to countries that are not "advanced." And, where "advanced" nations profit from it, it's done within the laws of the local nation and isn't "enforced servitude" under the overlordship of the advanced nation.

Plus, human labor is unlikely to be cheap for the alien capitalists, given the distances involved in shipping, so we're not likely to have to endure repressive, capitalist overlords forcing us to work for half the wages aliens get to do the same work on their homeworld.

So, in our society, we don't see a lot of advanced nations forcefully shipping people away to serve as cheap labor or inserting themselves as overlords over foreign nations, and there isn't really a feasible way for aliens to exploit us for cheap labor. So, why, exactly, do we think this is what aliens with more advanced societies are going to do to us?

Sure, I understand that it makes sense to be prepared for the worst-case scenarios, but I think people tend to be far too pessimistic about this sort of thing.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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