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Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 30 of 327 (649486)
01-23-2012 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Just being real
01-23-2012 5:31 PM


Likewise in a situation such as this issue where "person hood" is unknown, shouldn't we also CHOOSE to error on the side of safety?
If the question only implicated how we deal with the fetus, I would agree with your analysis. However, your analogy ignores the indisputable fact, a fact with which all intelligent people agree, that there is also another person involved; the woman carrying the fetus.
Childbirth is dangerous. According to Wiki, there are 10-30 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the U.S. This is certainly very low, but it is not an insignificant number. Anytime the law requires a woman to carry a child, the law is requiring a woman to risk her life. On top of that, during pregnancy a woman's body undergoes tremendous change, creating numerous inconveniences for her and threats to her health short of death.
It is the height of arrogance for anyone to analyze this issues solely from the perspective of the fetus.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Just being real, posted 01-23-2012 5:31 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Just being real, posted 01-23-2012 10:39 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 33 of 327 (649498)
01-23-2012 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by shadow71
01-23-2012 7:15 PM


I can't phantom ending a possible life that is conceived by the natural process of our evolutionary process.
So you value the possible life of the fetus over the actual, extant life of the woman?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by shadow71, posted 01-23-2012 7:15 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by shadow71, posted 01-24-2012 7:59 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 47 of 327 (649522)
01-23-2012 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Just being real
01-23-2012 10:39 PM


If it is a person, then as a person it has the right to live so long as that right doesn't impose an immediate threat to the mothers life.
As I demonstrated, pregnancy does pose an immediate threat to the mother's life.
You state that a person has the right to live. Does that right include the right to demand potentially life threatening support from someone else? If your answer is yes, does that mean that if someone needs your blood, and you are the only available match, that they have the right to take it from you against your will? What about a skin graft? What about a kidney? What about part of your liver, or a lung?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Just being real, posted 01-23-2012 10:39 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Just being real, posted 01-24-2012 12:55 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 61 of 327 (649562)
01-24-2012 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Just being real
01-24-2012 12:55 AM


A typical nonanswer from someone trying to avoid the issue. Not that I expected anything less from you.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Just being real, posted 01-24-2012 12:55 AM Just being real has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 01-24-2012 1:06 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 64 of 327 (649606)
01-24-2012 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
01-24-2012 1:06 PM


Those questions were not off topic. They were legitimate questions exploring the depth of his apparent position that the right to life includes the right to biological support from another person. I seriously doubt his nonanswer had anything to do with off topic issues. Instead, he saw that the logical conclusions from the position that he was trying to defend were indefensible and wasn't willing to face the consequences.
Of course, since he simply punted, we'll never know for sure.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 01-24-2012 1:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 01-25-2012 7:07 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 83 of 327 (649660)
01-24-2012 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by shadow71
01-24-2012 7:59 PM


If a mother's life is in danger as a result of her pregancy that is not the same as a "mother" who terminates because of "social " reasons.
And what would you consider "social reasons?" How do you determine whether the mother's reasons are "social reasons" or something else? Who are you to say whether a woman's reasons are a sufficient basis for her to have control over what happens in and to her body?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by shadow71, posted 01-24-2012 7:59 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 100 of 327 (649725)
01-25-2012 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Percy
01-25-2012 7:07 AM


I could. But based on what I've seen in this thread, I suspect that if he participated at all, he'd dodge difficult questions while pretending that he wasn't basing his entire position on his religion. Since he's already doing that here, I see no reason to open another thread for the same thing.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 01-25-2012 7:07 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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