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Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
1.61803
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Joined: 02-19-2004
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Message 69 of 327 (649630)
01-24-2012 4:27 PM


This thread is disturbing.

Life begins when a woman becomes pregnant.

I thought that was a no brainer. If the woman decides she does not want the baby she can get a abortion.


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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
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Message 71 of 327 (649641)
01-24-2012 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Perdition
01-24-2012 4:33 PM


It's just as easy to say that life continues when the woman gets pregnant, as the sperm and egg are each alive, too
This depends on what one defines as alive. A sperm and egg can not reproduce. They are alive only in the sense that they contain the fuel to accomplish a mission. But once the fuel is exhausted they are reabsorbed. A cell is alive because it is being maintained by a host organism. We are a collective of cells all living in symbiosis. Do we give the same reverences to cells? It is the collective called a human that is what we call a human. Not a gamete.

Life is contingent on a organisms ability to maintain homeostasis, reproduce and evolve through natural selection.

A skin cell or hair contains the blueprint for life, but will never become a lifeform without the additional mechanisms necessary to carry out a gestation.

Once the baby develops a brain it is a human life and should not be killed just as any other person should not be killed.

If someone kills that person they should have to deal with the laws our society has set forth. I think our current laws are adequate and fair in regards to this issue.


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 73 of 327 (649645)
01-24-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Perdition
01-24-2012 5:17 PM


Depends on how you define reproduce. You could say that reproduce is all a sperm and an egg do.
Yes but not one without the other, unless you believe in parthenogenisus or immaculate conception.

The real question was "when is it moral to abort?"
Morality is subjective, but my opinion is once the baby develops a brain and begins to think.

Secondly, killing a person is sometimes justified.
But must be justified by our legal system.

The decisions should be left to a mother, her family, and her physician.
I believe that is the law of the land.

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
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Message 77 of 327 (649651)
01-24-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Straggler
01-24-2012 5:40 PM


I don't think you can define life in terms of ability to reproduce without facing some rather silly consequences

In the definition of life, reproduce is often cited as a criteria. In order to keep the post concise I did not get into a long drawn out text book definition. Assuming the reader would be able to gleen the meaning of my post.

However "ability to reproduce" is in the definition.

Name me one organism in any Taxa that does not reproduce.


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 79 of 327 (649653)
01-24-2012 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Perdition
01-24-2012 5:53 PM


That sterile male human being came from a fertile reproducing human being.
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 81 of 327 (649655)
01-24-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Perdition
01-24-2012 5:58 PM


My point is ALL organisms in all taxa can trace they're existence to the previous reproducing organism that preceded it.
Hence the inclusion of the word reproducing in part of the definition of life. But as with many things there are exceptions to the rule. eg: virus.
However in general it is usually accepted that Homo Sapiens sapiens are reproducing organisms.

I did not mean a sterile man or woman is NOT alive. So several post later I pay the price for my folly.


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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 101 of 327 (649729)
01-25-2012 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Straggler
01-25-2012 7:18 AM


Straggler writes:

What on Earth has taxanomic classification of species got to do with deciding whether or not any given embryo or foetus qualifies as a human being or not?


None whatsoever. You implicated that using the term "ability to reproduce" Was....what was your word???? oh would have silly consequences.

I merely assert that that term is in the description of life and that it is there for a reason. Every thing that lives(organisms) reproduces.

Straggler writes:

Any infertile member of any species is an example of "one organism in any Taxa that does not reproduce". Any human pre-pubescent child would qualify.

Incorrect, the organism reproduces on a grand scale daily. Its called Mitosis and Meiosis. http://publications.nigms.nih.gov/...dethecell/chapter4.html

Straggler writes:

If ability to reproduce is the criteria then none of us qualify as human until we hit puberty. Are we really going to disqualify 8 year old kids from being human?

Incorrect, as stated above all organisms reproduce. If they did not they would cease to be alive.
http://faculty.evansville.edu/...DFs/8_Cell_Reproduction.pdf Bold is mine
Bio 100 - Cellular Reproduction
1
Cellular Reproduction and Genetics among Eukaryotes
Overview
The perpetuation of living things (reproduction) requires cell division - the splitting of
one cell into two cells
The events that take place inside the cell between one division and the next are
collectively called the cell cycle
And the net results of these events is cellular reproduction

FROM WEBSTERS:
life noun \ˈlīf\
plural lives

Definition of LIFE

1
a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body
b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings
c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2
a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual
b : one or more aspects of the process of living

Edited by 1.61803, : added word organism to distinquish from nonliving reproducing things.


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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 108 of 327 (649799)
01-25-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Straggler
01-25-2012 12:54 PM


my zygote is a tumor
Straggler writes:

So what exactly is your point?

You straggled into a established conversation between myself and Perdition. You sniped at a out of context comment I made in regards to the definition of life.

I made my point. In my opinion a human life begins when a woman becomes pregnant and the baby develops a brain.

Straggler writes:

That a zygote qualifies as a human life because it is capable of cellular reproduction? The same could be said of a cancerous growth.

Oh so you equate a human zygote with a cancerous growth? A human zygote has the propensity to yes, develop into a human. A cancer has the propensity to develop into a tumor.

Are you saying that aborting a zygote is the same as excising a tumor? I guess if you feel that way you would not have a problem cutting your penis off. I mean after all it is but so much tissue. Oh whats that you say? It happens to be using your circulatory system and central nervous system? Well now maybe we will look at those little bits of naughty bits in a new way eh? Perhaps it is comes down to what value humans assign to our reproductive tissues eh?


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 112 of 327 (649805)
01-25-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rahvin
01-25-2012 3:38 PM


Re: Conceptuses
Very well said Rahvin, your articulated that in a cogent graceful way.
And I who often grasp for a way to understand appreciate the clarity.
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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 115 of 327 (649811)
01-25-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:51 PM


HUMAN BEING
We must decide what is a human first.

Is a human zygote a human? If you answer yes then human life begins at the moment the zygote forms.

If you answer no. Then we get into the Black---->White scenario of when is it Human.

Science has no answer. It can identify a human zygote and whether or not it is alive.

But it can not identify at what point we call it a human being.
Which is the salient point.

Some say it is the moment the fetus becomes a self aware being.
Hence the word BEING.
HUMAN BEING. Thats my take on it.


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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 117 of 327 (649813)
01-25-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Perdition
01-25-2012 4:24 PM


Re: HUMAN BEING
I would say this is the quality that most people use, whether they're aware of it or not. The people who disagree with this in the case of a fetus are, IMHO, succumbing to anthropomorphization and/or sexism.
It took me sometime to come to this conclusion. But it is because of discussions like this with non-apologist we can delve into other points of view that would otherwise be hereitical in other circles. It is ultimately a personal journey we all must make or be abandoned on the shores of ignorance.
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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 120 of 327 (649818)
01-25-2012 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straggler
01-25-2012 4:50 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
What do you think?
I think that is the bees knees.
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1.61803
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Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 125 of 327 (649827)
01-25-2012 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Straggler
01-25-2012 5:34 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
Straggler, If you go back to where my post to Perdition began, and follow to where Perdition in a aside stated that life reproducing can not be the only criteria, using the sperm and egg as a example of them being both "alive". And" reproduce is all they essentially do." I then retorted that yes they are alive, however they are only alive long enough to accomplish a mission.
But they're existence is contingent on the host organism.

I then went on to defend my use one of the criteria of life as (reproduction) as that definition is used in biology,

This banter went back and forth until you chimed in that using reproduction in defining life is" silly". I then responded with "what taxa of organisms do not reproduce?" To which you responded with" infertile males and prepubesants," who are quite certainly alive.

To which I responded with citing my use of the term reproducing in describing "Life" and pointing out that infertile organisms still reproduce they're cells. To which you conflate cellular reproduction with a cancer and zygote. To which I conflate a tumor with zygote and a zygote with a penis.

All the while the main point was made at the beginning of answering Perdition. That imo human life begins with when a woman becomes pregnant and the brain develops. So who again is confused? What in that is irreconcilable? "Me thinks thou dost protest to much."


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 127 of 327 (649830)
01-25-2012 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Straggler
01-25-2012 6:14 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
I think, not sure. You are hung up on the initial mention of one of the criteria used to describe and define life as: "The ability to reproduce." This dragged the thread off topic. My bad. Perdition and I were content to banter the point.

It was where Straggler interjected, that Straggler misconstrued the previous discourse.

Which is fine as long as you realize I was not defining the inception of human life with it's ability to reproduce.

How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life?
The 24-28th week.

And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells?
Because you started fucking with me.
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2191
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 148 of 327 (649886)
01-26-2012 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Straggler
01-25-2012 6:55 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
Straggler writes:

Then what are you defining in terms of the ability to reproduce and what possible relevance does it have to this thread?

The thread Topic is:When does human life begin?
One of the criteria used in the definition of life is the ability to reproduce. When someone asks a question or states a premise it is sometimes helpful to define ones terms.

Straggler writes:

OK. But that isn't "how". That is "when". What is it about the brain of a 24-28 week old foetus that qualifies it for human life?

That is when the brain is developed to the point where the fetus is able to have brain activity. It is regarded by some as the first sparks of consciousness. The relevance I hold at this point is one of my own sense of morality that If it is possible for that human fetus to think and move about the womb, imprint on the mother or fathers voice, suck it's thumb; then all those behaviors are consistent with human consciousness. Also 24 weeks is known as the age of viability, the earliest a infant can be delivered and survive.
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