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Author Topic:   Genesis 1:1-5 Day One
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4527
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 31 of 110 (661507)
05-07-2012 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
05-07-2012 7:59 AM


Re: The Light was Good
CreationJon writes:


Ahh. Well, the simple answer is that Light was just created after many of those other things (gravity might be an exception). We have matter existing before light; maybe not all matter and certainly not in all forms, but there was matter there first, nonetheless.

doesn't it worry you at all that you're just making this up? "Gravity might be an exception" You think?

Light is just the part of the electromagnetic spectrum that we can see. The only thing special about it is that we have receptors in our eyes to detect it. What about the rest of the spectrum that we can't see? Was that there too?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:59 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 8:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 110 (661508)
05-07-2012 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
05-07-2012 8:22 AM


Re: The Light was Good
What about the rest of the spectrum that we can't see? Was that there too?

As I already told jar, that's not something that's easy to say.

However, I might suspect that it wasn't there at all. It would certainly fit with the notion of the formless matter being 'void' (Gen 1:2).

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2012 8:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2012 1:58 PM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 33 of 110 (661515)
05-07-2012 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
05-07-2012 7:59 AM


Re: The Light was Good
But nothing in your message answers the question I asked; "...the question is how we got heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and electrons before light?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:59 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 2:32 PM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9429
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 34 of 110 (661522)
05-07-2012 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
05-07-2012 7:59 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Well, the simple answer is that Light was just created after many of those other things (gravity might be an exception). We have matter existing before light; maybe not all matter and certainly not in all forms, but there was matter there first, nonetheless.

When are you going to get around to the evidence? Just in case you have forgotten, let me remind you that you are posting in the science forums. Simply citing the Bible and then going on with endless speculation is not suitable here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:59 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9429
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 35 of 110 (661523)
05-07-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
05-07-2012 7:57 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Assuming a Big Bang.

For which there is a model and evidence. Where is yours?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:57 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4527
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 36 of 110 (661524)
05-07-2012 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
05-07-2012 8:48 AM


Re: The Light was Good
CreationJon writes:

However, I might suspect that it wasn't there at all. It would certainly fit with the notion of the formless matter being 'void

So, you reckon that most of the electromagnetic spectrum from gamma rays (sub 0.1nm) to long waves (1000m+) existed but the visible spectrum - the tiny bit between 400nm and 700nm - was missing?

Doesn't that sound just a bit daft to you?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 8:48 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 2:29 PM Tangle has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 110 (661525)
05-07-2012 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
05-07-2012 1:58 PM


Re: The Light was Good
So, you reckon that most of the electromagnetic spectrum from gamma rays (sub 0.1nm) to long waves (1000m+) existed but the visible spectrum - the tiny bit between 400nm and 700nm - was missing?

Well that's not what I said. Try again.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2012 1:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2012 3:19 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 110 (661526)
05-07-2012 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
05-07-2012 9:40 AM


Re: The Light was Good
But nothing in your message answers the question I asked; "...the question is how we got heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and electrons before light?"

I guess an even better question is: Do we need light for those things to exist?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 05-07-2012 9:40 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 05-07-2012 2:52 PM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 39 of 110 (661528)
05-07-2012 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
05-07-2012 2:32 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Perhaps it is, but it is not the question I asked. I asked; "...the question is how we got heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and electrons before light?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 2:32 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 05-09-2012 7:35 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4527
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 40 of 110 (661530)
05-07-2012 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jon
05-07-2012 2:29 PM


Re: The Light was Good
CreationJon writes:

Well that's not what I said. Try again.

My apologies, I missread.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 2:29 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 110 (661670)
05-09-2012 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
05-07-2012 2:52 PM


Re: The Light was Good
I asked; "...the question is how we got heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and electrons before light?"

Well I suppose the most plain answer to that is that we just did. Matters and energies existed before light.

And that seems to be all there is to it. We know that light requires various matters and energies to exist; so it would be silly to suggest that it can exist prior to those matters and energies. Without any other evidence, it's just fanciful guesswork and special pleading to say that light came about before matters and energies (unformed Earth, remember) when logic and evidence dictates that it be otherwise.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 05-07-2012 2:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 05-09-2012 8:55 AM Jon has responded
 Message 43 by vimesey, posted 05-09-2012 9:11 AM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 42 of 110 (661679)
05-09-2012 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jon
05-09-2012 7:35 AM


Re: The Light was Good
You keep making the claim that "light requires various matters and energies to exist" but keep forgetting to explain what evidence or reasoning supports that assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 05-09-2012 7:35 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 05-10-2012 11:51 AM jar has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 809
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 43 of 110 (661681)
05-09-2012 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jon
05-09-2012 7:35 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Creation Jon writes:

We know that light requires various matters and energies to exist; so it would be silly to suggest that it can exist prior to those matters and energies.

Well, I am no scientist, and it would be wrong of me to even try to drill down into the detail of precisely how light (and other wavelengths on the electromagnetic spectrum) are emitted under various circumstances. But let's take your statement at face value for a moment.

If it would be silly to suggest that light can exist before various matters and energies exist (and I'm pretty sure that no one is suggesting that (subject to my earlier point about things being much more complex)), then why is it not silly to suggest that those matters and energies can exist for a day or so before they get round to producing light ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 05-09-2012 7:35 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 9:43 AM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 05-10-2012 11:57 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9429
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 44 of 110 (661684)
05-09-2012 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by vimesey
05-09-2012 9:11 AM


Re: The Light was Good
then why is it not silly to suggest that those matters and energies can exist for a day or so before they get round to producing light ?

There is no need to drill down even this far. Neither the earth nor the sun are oldest collections of matter in existence. And in fact, nothing in Genesis requires any such thing. Accordingly, we need not demonstrate that light must exist before matter in order to debunk CreationJon's musings.

The link below is to an article about a gamma source that is 13.14 billion light years away from earth. Quite obviously, the electromagnetic energy from this object that has currently reached us was emitted at a time that predates the existence of earth.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/...-object-ever-seen-maybe

In fact, though, there are plenty of objects in the universe or even in our own galaxy that emit visible light that does not shine on earth. The idea that light could not exist before the earth existed because such light would have no purpose is simply not an idea worth serious consideration.

CreationJon appears to have no intention on making any attempt to defend his propositions with evidence or even with logical arguments. I would expect that real creationists would not appreciate being mocked in this manner.

If it would be silly to suggest that light can exist before various matters and energies exist

Would it? What "energies" and "matters" are referred to in the sentence above, anyway? With apologies to my least favorite Supreme Court Justice, the above sentence is just goobledygook.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by vimesey, posted 05-09-2012 9:11 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 110 (661808)
05-10-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
05-09-2012 8:55 AM


Re: The Light was Good
You keep making the claim that "light requires various matters and energies to exist" but keep forgetting to explain what evidence or reasoning supports that assertion.

Let's start with photons. Do you have trouble accepting the claim that photons are required for the existence of light?

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 05-09-2012 8:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 05-10-2012 2:39 PM Jon has responded
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 2:41 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
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