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Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 91 of 117 (705486)
08-27-2013 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Jon
08-27-2013 4:43 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Jon writes:

How do you actually measure the strictness with which a religion adheres to its holy book(s)? What are 'traditional rules and roles'?

Are Muslims really less conservative than Jehovah's Witnesses? Are secular folk more conservative than Hindus?

Seriously? Hard to believe, but briefly in case you're serious, conservative religions are those with greater religiosity. Examples of traditional roles and rules would be where a wife is expected to submit gracefully to her husband's bidding, or where marriage can only be between a man and woman.

About judging whether any specific religion is more conservative than another specific religion, I wouldn't know how to do that. The x-axis is not a stand-in for religious conservatism and I didn't say it was. What I said was that the graph shows that the more conservative religions, those with greater religiosity, have lower income and lower education.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 4:43 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 9:34 PM Percy has responded

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 949
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 92 of 117 (705488)
08-27-2013 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
08-26-2013 9:07 PM


closing time for me
Your NY Times link didn't work for me. I'll check it again some other time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 08-26-2013 9:07 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Percy, posted 08-28-2013 8:46 AM marc9000 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 117 (705489)
08-27-2013 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by New Cat's Eye
08-27-2013 1:56 PM


Was I wrong to read "Once X then Y" as saying that X is required for Y?

Once I turn left on D Street, I find myself at my house.

Does that statement imply that turning left on D is the only way to get to my house? Clearly not.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-27-2013 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-27-2013 11:49 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 117 (705490)
08-27-2013 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Percy
08-27-2013 7:53 PM


Re: Listing the Issues - at all
The x-axis is not a stand-in for religious conservatism and I didn't say it was.

Exactly. Conservativeness isn't on the graph at all.

What I said was that the graph shows that the more conservative religions, those with greater religiosity, have lower income and lower education.

Well, no, by your own admission the graph says nothing about conservativeness at all.

Seriously? Hard to believe, but briefly in case you're serious, conservative religions are those with greater religiosity. Examples of traditional roles and rules would be where a wife is expected to submit gracefully to her husband's bidding, or where marriage can only be between a man and woman.

Well; that didn't answer my questions at all.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Percy, posted 08-27-2013 7:53 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-27-2013 11:51 PM Jon has responded
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 08-28-2013 8:41 AM Jon has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 117 (705494)
08-27-2013 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by NoNukes
08-27-2013 8:25 PM


Once I turn left on D Street, I find myself at my house.

Does that statement imply that turning left on D is the only way to get to my house? Clearly not.

Sure, but its saying to me that if you hadn't turned left on D street, then you wouldn't have found yourself at your house. You might be able to get to your house through another route, but the statement is implying that you're on the one that requires a left turn on D street.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2013 8:25 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 117 (705495)
08-27-2013 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Jon
08-27-2013 9:34 PM


As you approach the more conservative religions, you approach lower incomes and education.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 9:34 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 12:41 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 117 (705496)
08-28-2013 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by New Cat's Eye
08-27-2013 11:51 PM


As you approach the more conservative religions, you approach lower incomes and education.

The graphic doesn't show this. It doesn't even address the issue of which religions are more conservative.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-27-2013 11:51 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2013 8:32 AM Jon has responded
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 9:29 AM Jon has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 98 of 117 (705508)
08-28-2013 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Jon
08-28-2013 12:41 AM


No it doesn't but observation and evaluation of the data and comparing it with other knowledge did. The graphic does not exist in a vacuum. We can, and should, bring other knowledge and data when we look at and analyze the graphic.

You posts are becoming inane and trollish.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 12:41 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 8:36 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 117 (705509)
08-28-2013 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Theodoric
08-28-2013 8:32 AM


No it doesn't but observation and evaluation of the data and comparing it with other knowledge did. The graphic does not exist in a vacuum. We can, and should, bring other knowledge and data when we look at and analyze the graphic.

And that's all fine and well. My question to Percy was for clarification on what 'knowledge and data' were used in determining the conservativeness of a religion.

Are there any outliers or anomalies on the graph in terms of what can be said about religions based on their conservativeness?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2013 8:32 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2013 9:00 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 100 of 117 (705510)
08-28-2013 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Jon
08-27-2013 9:34 PM


Re: Listing the Issues - at all
Jon writes:

The x-axis is not a stand-in for religious conservatism and I didn't say it was.

Exactly. Conservativeness isn't on the graph at all.

What I said was that the graph shows that the more conservative religions, those with greater religiosity, have lower income and lower education.

Well, no, by your own admission the graph says nothing about conservativeness at all.

I never said the graph provided information about which religions are conservative. We already know that the Baptists, Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are very conservative, and I noted that those religions are on the part of the graph with the lowest incomes and education.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Spelling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 9:34 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 12:16 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 101 of 117 (705511)
08-28-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by marc9000
08-27-2013 7:58 PM


Re: closing time for me
Apparently the NYT site was the victim of a DOS attack yesterday. It seems to be up now.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2013 7:58 PM marc9000 has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 102 of 117 (705513)
08-28-2013 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Jon
08-28-2013 8:36 AM


ad nauseum
My question to Percy was for clarification on what 'knowledge and data' were used in determining the conservativeness of a religion.

See this is you trolling. There are commonly accepted definitions for a conservative religion. You might want to try, google, bing, or my fave duckduck go, and do some research. It might take you 10 seconds.

Also, if that is the question you wanted to ask Percy maybe you should have just asked him.

Are there any outliers or anomalies on the graph in terms of what can be said about religions based on their conservativeness?

I am not sure what this beast of a question is even asking. Are there any conservative religions that are outliers from the rest?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 8:36 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 103 of 117 (705517)
08-28-2013 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Jon
08-28-2013 12:41 AM


As you approach the more conservative religions, you approach lower incomes and education.

The graphic doesn't show this.

Sure it does. Look at the religions that we know are the most conservative; They fall on the bottom left side of the graph.

It doesn't even address the issue of which religions are more conservative.

It doesn't need to. We already know which ones are the conservative ones.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 12:41 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 12:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 117 (705524)
08-28-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
08-28-2013 8:41 AM


Re: Listing the Issues - at all
We already know that the Baptists, Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are very conservative, and I noted that those religions are on the part of the graph with the lowest incomes and education.

That's it? Three of the eighteen fit your pattern?

What about the Muslims? What about the secular folk?

How are you determining which religions are conservative when you admittedly aren't able to judge the conservativeness of one religion against the conservativeness of another?

Are those the only three conservative ones?

Are there others?

How do you decide?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 08-28-2013 8:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 117 (705526)
08-28-2013 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
08-28-2013 9:29 AM


Nonsense. The secular group falls in the lower halfbehind Conservative Jews. And we cannot even guess at the conservativeness of the 'unaffiliated religious' because we don't have a clue in hell as to what they believe or practicethey are essentially an 'others' category.

Look at the religions that we know are the most conservative; They fall on the bottom left side of the graph.

Yes. But look at all of theminstead of just the conservative onesand we see a distributional pattern completely divorced from the conservativeness of the belief system.

You are doing what Percy is doing: picking and focusing on only the data sets that fit your predefined pattern while ignoring the others.

That don't work.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 9:29 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 12:41 PM Jon has responded

  
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