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Author Topic:   What if this forum was dominated by creationists?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 61 of 86 (708037)
10-03-2013 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
10-03-2013 8:20 PM


Re: And the editor of the year award goes to...
Well, seeing how you assumed I'm a rescuer and reformer and you look down on such kind, not surprising you would say this.

I just noticed something. Group think is taking hold of this thread. I said something that the politically correct crowd doesn't like, and now my words are nitpicked and quote-mined.

Anyway, I still reserve the right to call that family white trash, and the parents white trash parents. Read my previous explanations for why.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-03-2013 8:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29765
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 62 of 86 (708038)
10-03-2013 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by yenmor
10-03-2013 8:48 PM


Yup, "politically correct" is still funny.
Sorry, I don't look down on reformers and rescuers but they do scare the hell outta me.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 8:48 PM yenmor has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 63 of 86 (708051)
10-04-2013 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by NoNukes
10-02-2013 11:45 PM


Re: Come one come all
It's hard for participants in group thinking to see it, so if it is going, it would be hard to detect.

I am not sure that I agree with that. Group thinking is when an individual goes along with the opinion of the group in order to avoid sticking out from the crowd or to avoid disruption. It is basically succumbing to peer pressure and I think that people know when they are doing it. If you honestly agree with the group position then it is not the same thing as suppressing any dissent that you might have in order to remain part of the group.

As you say, the structure of the group is the best indication of whether or not group thinking is prevalent. It is up to the individual to speak their mind but if there are systemic restrictions in place then the group is more likely to suffer from it and those restrictions are usually very visible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2013 11:45 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 64 of 86 (708052)
10-04-2013 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ProtoTypical
10-04-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Come one come all
Also, group think is not the same as agroup of people who have the same opinion.

Scientifically educated people are all going to have the same view about the broader aspects of the ToE and geology - that isn't group think, it's concensus.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-04-2013 8:22 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 65 of 86 (708054)
10-04-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tangle
10-04-2013 8:31 AM


Re: Come one come all
Scientifically educated people are all going to have the same view about the broader aspects of the ToE and geology - that isn't group think, it's concensus.

Yes so group think does not apply to empirically evidenced things but only to areas where we have to make assumptions.


This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2732
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 66 of 86 (708059)
10-04-2013 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by yenmor
10-03-2013 7:13 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
Hi Yenmor,

"The lady doth protest to much, me thinks."

Airing out your boyfriend and his familie's dirty laundry on a anonymous internet forum is not a way to reconcile the way you feel about it. This has nothing to do with the Dunning-Krueger effect and perhaps more to do with you not wanting to appear elitist and judgemental. Which is precisely how many fundies act.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 7:13 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by yenmor, posted 10-05-2013 2:20 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 67 of 86 (708092)
10-04-2013 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by yenmor
10-03-2013 3:35 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
yenmor writes:

Stile writes:

On the other hand, you seem to claim that when you describe something... it's "exactly literal" and not judgemental in any way.

No, I did not. I was referring to that specific instance of my description of that family.

I see. Then, for this specific instance, how do you know you are being "exactly literal" and not evaluating your own judgement incorrectly?

..do you think I am justified in calling that family white trash?

I think you're justified in calling anyone anything you'd like. It's your mouth.
I'm fairly confident you're accurately describing the actions you've listed.
I'm also fairly confident you're not describing all their actions, and that they do other things that would certainly not be labelled as white trash.

I'm sure you and I both do things that can be called white trash.
I'm sure we both do things that go against that label as well.

It is extremely rare to find a person (let alone a family) that is one thing all the time. May even be impossible.

You've presented a false dilemma of 2 extremes.

I didn't present anything. I just asked a question about some stuff that you said.

So, which is this? Did you misread what I said? Did you quote-mine me? Are you just looking for someone to disagree? Are you just being politically correct? I'm trying to figure out where this is coming from.

I just found it interesting that earlier you mentioned how people can't ever really be positive that anything they judge is ever really 100%valid. Then you get onto a topic that you're passionate about, and all of a sudden you're "exactly literal." It seemed like a contradiction to me and I was just wondering if you'd ever get around to this again:

Not all my descriptions of anything are always correct. Like everyone else, I am not immune to misconceptions.

Exactly.
Myself included. Which is why I asked you a question for clarification in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 3:35 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 68 of 86 (708110)
10-04-2013 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ProtoTypical
10-04-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Come one come all
. It is basically succumbing to peer pressure and I think that people know when they are doing it.

I don't believe that people who are actually in group think situations consciously realize it, because nobody would chose to do it. In fact people in those situations would likely tell you that they value diversity of thought and opinion.

Have you ever found yourself in a group think situation. I have found myself in that situation on a few occasions. My personal experience is that the pressure at work are far more subtle than you describe.

In the case of this forum, I have no doubt that most of the participants here have reached their conclusions independently, so I'm not saying that their ideas about creatonism or evolution are a product of group think. But I think much of the culture exhibited here is a product of group think.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 69 of 86 (708111)
10-04-2013 9:45 PM


What if this forum was dominated by creationists?
What if this forum was dominated by creationists?

It would be a lot more fun! Imagine what a target-rich environment that would be.

What if this forum was run by creationists?

Anyone offering opposing opinions, no matter the evidence provided, would be banned within three posts.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 70 of 86 (708116)
10-05-2013 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Coyote
10-04-2013 9:45 PM


Re: What if this forum was dominated by creationists?
Evolutionfairytale welcomes you. Haha
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Coyote, posted 10-04-2013 9:45 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


(1)
Message 71 of 86 (708117)
10-05-2013 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by NoNukes
10-04-2013 8:53 PM


Re: Come one come all
I would argue that group think creeps up on us and that no one is immune to it all the time. It has happened to me as I'm sure it has happened to others.

I've read a study before, can't find citation, that the bigger the crowd, the lower the average IQ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by NoNukes, posted 10-04-2013 8:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 72 of 86 (708118)
10-05-2013 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Stile
10-04-2013 2:31 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
Stile writes:

I just found it interesting that earlier you mentioned how people can't ever really be positive that anything they judge is ever really 100%valid. Then you get onto a topic that you're passionate about, and all of a sudden you're "exactly literal." It seemed like a contradiction to me and I was just wondering if you'd ever get around to this again:


Stop it with the quote mining. The first instance was referring to individuals doing independent evaluation, and I even explained that in such a case we can never know for sure if what we think is truly accurate. The second instance there was a specific example of a literal white trash family. I even went out of my way to give you details about that family. Read my previous descriptions of them. And I'm not the only one who has described them as white trash.

May be one of the posters here was right, that you were just baiting waiting for me to back peddle or whatever.

I see. Then, for this specific instance, how do you know you are being "exactly literal" and not evaluating your own judgement (sic) incorrectly?

Independent verifications by others. I've even written out some details about them for you to see.

Based on the details I've given, how else would you describe this family?

I still don't understand how you can continue to quote mine me and misread what I said like that. Just baiting for me to back peddle?

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Stile, posted 10-04-2013 2:31 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Stile, posted 10-05-2013 9:00 AM yenmor has responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


(1)
Message 73 of 86 (708119)
10-05-2013 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by 1.61803
10-04-2013 10:53 AM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
1.61803 writes:

Airing out your boyfriend and his familie's dirty laundry on a anonymous internet forum is not a way to reconcile the way you feel about it. This has nothing to do with the Dunning-Krueger effect and perhaps more to do with you not wanting to appear elitist and judgemental. Which is precisely how many fundies act.


You are absolutely correct. I guess I got carried away when that family came to my mind. My mind is preoccupied with them at the moment. The aunts and uncles are trying to guilt us into taking them in... taking in 2 alcoholic parents and a 15 year old sister that still has tantrums... not to mention the guns that Obama is coming any day now to take away from him.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by 1.61803, posted 10-04-2013 10:53 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 74 of 86 (708129)
10-05-2013 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by yenmor
10-05-2013 2:13 AM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
yenmor writes:

Based on the details I've given, how else would you describe this family?

Like I said in my last post, I would describe them like this:

quote:
I think you're justified in calling anyone anything you'd like. It's your mouth.
I'm fairly confident you're accurately describing the actions you've listed.
I'm also fairly confident you're not describing all their actions, and that they do other things that would certainly not be labelled as white trash.

I'm sure you and I both do things that can be called white trash.
I'm sure we both do things that go against that label as well.

It is extremely rare to find a person (let alone a family) that is one thing all the time. May even be impossible.


Just baiting for me to back peddle?

No, just wondering if you'll acknowledge that people aren't ever really black-or-white.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by yenmor, posted 10-05-2013 2:13 AM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 10-05-2013 9:24 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 76 by yenmor, posted 10-05-2013 1:35 PM Stile has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29765
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 75 of 86 (708131)
10-05-2013 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Stile
10-05-2013 9:00 AM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
No, just wondering if you'll acknowledge that people aren't ever really black-or-white.

Of course that depends on time and place.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Stile, posted 10-05-2013 9:00 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
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