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Author Topic:   Science, Religion, God – Let’s just be honest
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 63 of 174 (715811)
01-09-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by scienceishonesty
01-06-2014 8:10 PM


Science works, it has worked in the past and will continue to work going forward. No matter how strong your faith is in your particular deity or religion, it will not stand the test of time like science will because science is simply an honest exploration in search of the truth. That is why science will win.
I see at least 2, what I see as, fatal flaws in your discourse.
First, I think you are conflating the purposes of religion and science; they seek to answer distinctly different questions. Religious endeavors seek to answer meta-physical questions such as does God exist? How should I treat others? Is there life after death? What is my purpose in life - why am I here? Science cannot address these types of questions.
Science is designed to address questions about the physical world. Its pursuits are limited to things which we can experience with our senses or can convert into a form which we can experience with our senses (example: we can't detect radioactivity directly with our senses but have developed instruments that can detect radioactive particles and then converts it into a format that we can observe with our senses).
Sure there is some overlap in the two systems, but the problem comes when that overlap becomes too great. When you use science exclusively to answer these types of meta-physical questions it becomes a type of religion, not in the strictest sense of belief in and worship of a supernatural being(s), but in the more general sense of a set of beliefs that relate humanity to an order of existence. It becomes a set of beliefs that attempts to answer the same questions that I mentioned as the purpose of religion.
The second flaw I see is that you seem to attribute all human failings to religion. When in fact, human corruption is the base problem and religion simply becomes a justification for personal conduct. You seem to believe that should we eliminate all religion that would somehow eliminate human corruption. I don't believe that to be the case. We have seen a significant departure from organized religion in recent years, and yet I don't think it can be shown that human corruption has significantly improved.
Science is important, even crucial, to our understanding of reality, I would agree, but I don't believe it can answer all of our questions; that it can address all the challenges of the human condition.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by scienceishonesty, posted 01-06-2014 8:10 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 79 of 174 (716201)
01-13-2014 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by scienceishonesty
01-09-2014 6:05 PM


Physician heal thyself
Suffice it to say that when a person says they are "religious" or "very religious", it nearly invariably means that they don't accept a possibility that they are wrong in what they believe. It really just goes with the territory.
Any possibility that you could be wrong about what you are saying and what you believe? You don't seem to think so.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by scienceishonesty, posted 01-09-2014 6:05 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 137 of 174 (717011)
01-23-2014 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Diomedes
01-23-2014 9:19 AM


Re: Atheists are ugly, too!
I agree with your general sentiment especially:
They are different responses to different questions.
And agree there are different grades of theists/ atheists that don't fall neatly into two distinct categories.
But I don't really agree with your entomology (or maybe just your definitions)
Gnosticism is a specific set of beliefs from a religious group in the second century.
quote:
the thought and practice especially of various cults of late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries distinguished by the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosis (knowledge)
Agnosticism
quote:
1:a person who does not have a definite belief about whether God exists or not
2: a person who does not believe or is unsure of something
So in popular usage, the terms theist, atheist, deist and agnostic convey a general statement about a person's position regarding the existence / non-existence of a deity/ god.
In order to truly apply your system of gnostic theist, agnostic theist, etc ... you would need to ask specific questions about specific areas of knowledge. In other words, a person could be certain in their knowledge about one aspect of god, but agnostic as to another aspect. But yes, there can be varying degrees of certainty among the varying generalized categories.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Diomedes, posted 01-23-2014 9:19 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Diomedes, posted 01-23-2014 11:07 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
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