Is it time to consider compulsory vaccinations?

I lay awake at night wondering what they put in the vaccines that makes us want to take vaccines. I think that it must be little corpusals of fear.Seriously though I am not. I am just looking.

Huh?I didn't understand any of that... "I am just looking" is what one says to pushy salespeople; it doesn't mean much on an Internet forum.

If the catcalls were a health risk to other people, then yes, the women would be responsible for taking any reasonable precautions to prevent the cat calls.

Yep. Yep. Glad I could help. Well, Clostridium tetani does not do well with the defensive bacteria in your mouth and the acids in your stomach so probably not. But, if you had an open sore on your lip as the dirt passed by you could get the disease that way.And, yes, once you've had the disease you can build a resistant immune response for the next time you dine. The problem is that for this first exposure you would have to suffer the full course of the disease. Not pleasant. Now, if you had taken the vaccine before this first exposure your immune system would already have the resistant immune response ready and you could go out dancing with your wife without falling down in a spastic fit when she goes to nuzzle on your neck. The point you're missing is that when you poke the bug up your nose without the vaccine you have to run the full course of the disease. Poking the same bug up your same nose having had the vaccine you don't get sick, or not as badly sick. Either way you wind up with the immune response ready to go for the next round assuming the unvaccinated child survives that initial hit. Since we have proven that vaccines have worked over the past 150 years in literally dozens of diseases saving millions of lives then I can say we know a fuckin' hell of a lot about the damn subject and this "we don't know everything" excuse is a load of dead baby disease ridden crap!

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General Rule
The more similar a vaccine is to the natural disease, the better the immune response to the vaccine.

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Once an infection spreads to the bloodstream, however, the same mechanisms by which TNF-α so effectively contains local infection instead become catastrophic.

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sourceSo you are wrong about these points but it doesn't change the fact that vaccination is generally a good idea. It works and I know it works but it does not work the same way that sticking your finger up your nose does nor is it as simple as you claim.Our knowledge of the immune system is like the average person's knowledge of how a car works. Sure they can make it go and maybe change a tire but don't ask them to set the valve clearance. No I am not missing that point. While vaccination remains a champion it is perhaps not quite as shiny as you make out. The point that I am making is that our immune response is a dynamic system and chaos theory shows us that tiny differences in initial conditions can have large and unpredictable implications.How does your threat matrix change if we find a link between vaccination and autoimmune diseases? Should we even look?

Since I deal with the immune system on a regular basis, perhaps I can fill you in on a few facts.The antigens in a vaccine are the same exact antigens that your body would see during a real infection. The immune response to the vaccine is exactly like it would be to a real infection, with one main difference. In a real infection, the virus or bacteria keep multiplying and cause a much greater immediate response. However, the long term adaptive response is the same, if a bit weaker with vaccines because of the lower acute immune response. Again, the only difference is that the vaccine is not a multiplying virus or bacteria. Everything else is the same as far as your immune system is concerned.In the end, you have circulating antibodies that bind to the antigens found on viruses and bacteria, as well as memory B-cells that can pump out a lot more antibodies if the come into contact with that antigen again. Vaccines stimulate your naturally occurring immune response just like real infections do.What I think you are getting wrapped up in is the Naturalistic Fallacy, whereby anything man made or artificial has to be worse than what occurs in nature.And by the way, our knowledge of the immune system is a lot better than you think. In fact, I have produced lines of B-cells that spit out antibodies to specific antigens, sometimes as specific as a 10 amino acid section of a protein. I have also looked at the immune response to very real and ongoing infections through gene regulation and serum cytokine levels. To use your analogy, we can do a lot more than setting valve clearances. Weather is chaotic and dynamic, yet we can predict with ease that Seattle will have more rainfall than Phoenix on a per annum basis. The same for vaccines. For the vast majority of people (>95%), vaccines work and they work well. They produce a very predictable adaptive immune response that can protect people for decades, sometimes for a lifetime. We do it by letting nature take its course.Earlier you said something to the effect that vaccines are actively interfering with our immune system. That is as boneheaded as sending your kids out in sub-zero weather without a coat because it would be actively interfering with their body temperature. If anything, giving kids an aspirin to lower a fever is a much more drastic interference of their immune system than a vaccine is. Infections already cause autoimmune disease, such as Streptococcus causing rheumatic heart disease. The chances of developing an autoimmune response increases with the severity of infection meaning that the threat of an autoimmune response is lowered by getting a vaccine. On the flip side, some autoimmune diseases may have evolved to fight of real infections, such lupus being protective for malarial infections.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Have you seen evidence of this? Or are you fear-mongering?

Yep #1 has nothing to do with No matter how the bug gets in or what its strength, you can develop an immune response. So, in your nose, your leg, a weakened vaccine, your blood, your dick, a strong vaccine, doesn't matter. If the bug gets in an immune response can be developed.Your source is worthless for the question you asked and I, properly, without error, answered. Yep #2 has nothing to do with Local infection to blood infection (sepsis) can take place when an initial infection (one without a ready immune response built up in the body) spreads away from the initial containment response. That has nothing to do with the immune response system.The immune response system is the body releasing antibodies that attach to the bug so the leukocytes can find and eat it (though the intricate details are quite complex). If sepsis occurs the same process now takes place in the blood! Antibodies attach to bugs and leukocytes eat them. That is the immune response. Sepsis in the face of no ready immune response is what is so dangerous when containment fails. No, your reading comprehension trapped you into believing something that wasn't quite right.As for your view on our knowledge on this subject being minimal to non-existent (the average person's knowledge of how a car works.) this is just plain bull shit.And your attempt to scare up a connection to autoimmune disease is dishonest and disgusting. There is no hint of such a thing. Why even posit such bull? No, don't answer that. I done here.

I understand the pamphlet explanation of vaccination and immunity. I understand that they work very well and have saved millions of lives. I also understand that being very similar is not the same as being the same and that it is very hard to spot which differences are insignificant in a complex system. No not me, give me the good stuff wherever it comes from. The thing is that there are not too many free lunches to be found. Organisms that have evolved over billions of years develop a balance with their environment that is intricate to say the least. I don't mean to disparage or even downplay all the incredible work that people like you have done but do you think that we have pegged all of those intricacies? No more great discoveries to be made in immunology?

It occurred to me when I saw the increase in autoimmune disease rates and then I saw that the anti-vaxxers were trumpeting the possibility. I found a few studies that were behind paywalls and this report. I don't really know what much of it means and most of the info is out of reach but I can see how having aluminium accumulate in the brain might be a bad thing that takes 50 yrs to realize is happening.Even so, does this mean we should stop immunizing? No I don't think so but it should be enough to ask a question about it on a forum without being demonized and castigated.

How can we even begin to quantify the magnitude of psychological damage inflicted on all those wretched souls who receive no catcalls whatsoever because only the beautiful people get them? Surely, the beautiful are to blame.I don't know how to do this calculus. I don't know how to do any calculus but I don't know how to do this one either.You are at the traffic light waiting for green. It changes and you go without looking and get broadsided by someone running the light and consequently run up on the sidewalk and kill a mother and her 2 children. Is this your fault because you didn't take the simple and reasonable precaution of looking before taking your right of way?

Yes.Seriously, you don't know how to do that calculus?

Again, your ignorance of how vaccines and the immune system work is not shared by professionals who study them. Again, you make reference to some profound ignorance amongst immunlogists and microbiologists that simply doesn't exist. We understand how vaccines work, and why they work.

This is a lot like the supposed link between mercury based bacteriostatic preservatives and autism. They removed thimerosal from all of the vaccines, and what happened? Autism rates didn't budge. They are leaping from one unsupported assertion to another.

Obviously a strong positive correlation.