Multiculturalism

I hear you. Come build our railroads then GTFO.

ಠ_ಠNot that they have to leave; they have to assimilate.And even then, only insomuch as they aren't diluting the host culture beyond recognition.(as it is apparent to me)

That comment shows an ignorance of history.The Chinese workers who built the railroads went into many other jobs after the railroads were finished. In my area they helped drain swamps to put in grain fields. But before long they were moving out of the fields and into business, so Japanese laborers were brought in to replace them. They too began to move into other jobs and the exclusion laws were enacted to restrict their immigration. Filipinos took their place, as they were American nationals after the Spanish-American war of 1898 and could not be excluded.Eventually all of these groups became part of the American culture that I mentioned in a previous post. While retaining respect for their home cultures, they became full-fledged Americans, participating in the American culture.This is the melting pot, and it worked pretty well.We have yet so see whether full multiculturalism, where everyone dances to their own drummer, will work as well.

That's not historically how we treated the Chinese workers who built our railroads. I note Coyote's "abridged" version of the truth so I'll do a bit of filing in. Chinese people were not, in general, welcomed to assimilate in the 1800s. In fact we passed legislation severely limiting their ability to integrate for the sole reason that people hated them.The ones who were already here in many cases stayed in the face of overt discrimination that pretty much forced them to stay to themselves. Well unless we needed laborers or someone to have sex with.Diluting our culture and racial composition was indeed one of the phrases used to justify blatant xenophobia. Let's also point out that at the time we passed Chinese Exclusion Act legislation this country had essentially no immigration restrictions. US policy violated treaties and agreements with China.The Chinese Exclusion acts were repealed in 1943, primarily because we needed China as an ally in WWII. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Your post does not tell the whole story.Those Chinese, particularly on the west coast, became valuable members of society over time--they were part of the melting pot. So did the Japanese and later Filipinos. I know a lot of them in my area. They'd be astounded if they were considered anything but Americans!A lot of groups faced discrimination to start with. The Irish were one of those. Virtually all of those groups overcame that and became full-fledged Americans.That does not seem to be the goal today.

How long did it take for the Chinese to become accepted? Was it quick enough that we ought to assume it was instantaneous? Or is getting the #@$% end of the stick for the better part of a century considered just paying your dues?Yes, I'll acknowledge that Irish, and Germans had an easier time of it. And hey, let's talk about how the difference between how Germans and Japanese people were treated during WWII. Large segments of our population were actually sympathetic to Germany.Let's further talk about how people from India were considered white for purposes other than immigration. Then maybe we can get into the lot of Black people returning from WWII. And those people were not even immigrants. They were a part of American culture.The story for all immigrants is not the same. You are correct that I did not tell the whole story. But your offering was a complete laundering of what actually happened. I still have no idea what or who you are talking about. Are you going to tell us?Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Well you were happy to put forward the way women are treated in minority cultures, why not use some of those kinds of measures? It was common for women to have to accept a certain amount of sexual harassment/assault in the workplace, but this has become more widely condemned over time. See also the treatment of African-Americans, homosexuals, the disabled etc. I'm not sure how that would work differently than it does now. We do encourage the adoption of local culture, and the job opportunities doing so affords could be seen as financial assistance. What are we talking here? Payments for speaking English? In the USA that might be an issue with it not being the 'official' language' Something like Denmark?The removal of religious celebrations from schools would seem to be an intrinsic part of a secular nation's culture. I don't live in your culture and I have not seen any removal of holidays or their discussion from schools. Could you fill me in? Am I to understand that the school closes for Thanksgiving, but they don't discuss Thanksgiving in schools? That's fine, but it was my understanding that education is filled with this kind of stuff. Heck - highschools often have metal detectors in the entrances - how quintessentially American that is! Honestly, you communicated your ideas in a way that was still general enough to describe what happens anyway. I'm guessing you want it more overt, but I'm not sure what that would look like. If we're talking direct financial incentives, how would one qualify? What would we see in schools that isn't there today with regards to American culture?

NoNukes inquires: I would suspect Coyote is referring to the "lax" accommodation on the part of people who could say otherwise to the Hispanic-American communities of having 2 languages.I.E.: The reason you have to even press "1" to continue in English.

No, nothing so specific.My comment has been that multiculturalism, as pushed by the usual suspects, is designed to diminish the American culture.Nobody has offered any comments or refutation of that point.

That's not true. For example, some people have pointed out that it is willfully obscure nonsense, and invited you to explain what the fuck you think you're talking about. That would fall under "comments". If you want a "refutation" you'll have to bring yourself to actually mean something --- one cannot punch a fog.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

I agree. I view any political ideology with suspicion. Note the situation here in Canada where we have BI-lingualism promoted nationally (and French supremacy promoted militantly in Quebec). My grandparents spoke neither official language and got no help whatsoever in preserving their cultural heritage. I have no problem with diluting the host culture. Let it evolve naturally. Social engineering gives me the creeps, whether it's national policy or just part of the host culture.

Isn't this what is actually happening in practice? Isn't this what most people mean by "multiculturalism"?As I see it, most of the objections to multiculturalism come from a made up right wing faux outrage.

I don't see how these things apply. Equal treatment for women, homosexuals, disabled people, etc. are all action shots of the Western cultural ideal of individual liberty. The ideal was not realized in full at its conception, but there is no doubt that it is within Western cultures that these ideals were first constructed and where they have been slowly becoming realities.These things are part of the Western culture. And I think anyone who claims these ideals are not superior to their alternatives is either lying or a nutcase. In Multiculturalism these ideals, and all cultural ideals, become 'equalized'. The cultural ideal of 'fair and equitable treatment regardless of sex/gender' is no better than the 'women listen to your husbands or they'll beat you' ideal. This is one of the negative side effects of Multiculturalism that I quoted in the OP. This is possible because Multiculturalism treats the Western culture, along with the values that make it what it is, as just 'another culture', and gives equal treatment to other cultures that may not hold those values.I think people have good reason to be concerned about this consequence of Multiculturalism and what it means for the development of our societies. Actually, areas of the U.S. already have such programs. In the city where I worked with ELL students, there were certain forms of welfare that required enrollment in an English class and the submission of forms from teachers testifying to the number of instructional hours, etc.You are definitely right that job opportunities form great incentives. But this is still just mostly for learning the language.There are other aspects of culture that are equally, if not more, important, such as some of the values I mentioned above. I have to be honest that I am not sure how financial incentives could get people to adopt the values of the Western culture. Interesting. A similar implementation in the U.S. might involve limits on refugee stays along with more strict conditions for gaining citizenship. There are holidays that are both cultural and religious. Often in an attempt to keep religion out of the classroom, both components are removed when they need not be.

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Wikipedia on Christmas:

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Countries such as Japan, where Christmas is popular despite there being only a small number of Christians, have adopted many of the secular aspects of Christmas, such as gift-giving, decorations, and Christmas trees.

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There's a difference between putting up a Christmas tree and setting up a Nativity. Celebration of Christmas is a major part of U.S. culture; it is not restricted only to Christians, and there are even Christians who do not celebrate Christmas. You can cut 'Away in a Manger' from music class without removing 'Deck the Halls' or 'Jingle Bells'.It is a federal holiday in the U.S. and the equivalent in many other countries. See above about Christmas. And here:

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Wikipedia on Christmas Controversies:

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A controversy regarding these issues arose in 2002, when the New York City public school system banned the display of Nativity scenes, but allowed the display of supposedly less overtly religious symbols such as Christmas trees, Hanukkah menorahs, and the Muslim star and crescent. The school system successfully defended its policy in Skoros v. City of New York (2006).

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From the NY Times (cited in the Wikipedia article):

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"Lawsuit Attacks Schools' Ban on Nativity Scenes" from The New York Times, Dec. 11, 2007:

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The policy permits what it calls secular holiday decorations, including ''Christmas trees, menorahs and the star and crescent,'' according to a memorandum that the schools chancellor's general counsel distributed a year ago. If one symbol is displayed, so should those of other ''beliefs or customs,'' it said.

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Note clear double standard. This might be to the point of some of Coyote's remarks earlier that a lot of Multicultural policy seems aimed at suppressing the host/national culture in recognition of immigrant/minority cultures.I don't think we need Nativities, but then we probably don't need menorahs or Muslim stars either. Thanksgiving is discussed. However, my particular remark was about efforts by some teachers to encourage adult ELL students to celebrate the holiday at home as Americans, since it is not a religious holiday. The opposition to celebrating Thanksgiving is usually founded on beliefs that it is a Christian holiday for Christians worshiping their Christian God, etc. Not very American at all. But then again, neither is shooting up the hallways because someone picked on you. I think I have elaborated some, but I'll add more where requested.As for what to add to schools, I think one thing that is missing is very direct instruction on values. While values are occasionally hidden within the rules set for the students, punishments for breaking those rules are often ridiculously lax. Other values are pretty much absent, such as democracy, rule of law, etc. These are things that have probably never been overtly taught, but the increase of populations with non-western cultures almost requires that we bring these things into classrooms if we expect assimilation of those cultures with the national one.A broader problem but also related:Unless they need to be taught how to hold crayons, parents need to stay out of school. This would go a long way in releasing some schools from pressures to provide according to non-western cultural standards. It is a fact that in plenty of schools non-western cultural backgrounds are the norm for a majority of the students and their parents. This has a pretty severe impact on the ability of the school to foster assimilation and provide pro-assimilation education; it cannot do these things while at the same time pandering to the interests of non-western cultures.JonEdited by Jon, : Too, many, commas,.

Isn't the reason you have to do this because businesses want to make money from as many people as possible? Does someone actually believe that this is done to promote multi-culturalism? Wouldn't such a person be an idiot?What would be the contrary position? For a car repair shop to insist on not fixing your car until you learn to speak English? For a business owner not to pander to potential clients?In any event, Coyote says this is not quite what he means. I am not going to guess because I'm sure my guesses would be insulting, inaccurate accusations of wing-nuttery.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Multiculturalism is not the same as the melting pot.I don't see schools teaching American culture. Perhaps you can point out some of the things you have seen schools doing that promotes assimilation.I know schools are different all over the country. It is not at all made up. If you read the OP and follow the links there, you will see that there is evidence to suggest that Multiculturalism is a bad model for a society to follow.