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Author | Topic: Multiculturalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Right, so if we make all murder legal then there will be no more murder. Clever solution to the problem. We can eliminate fraud that way too, just make it legal. And theft. Just change the laws so there is no such thing as theft. Wonderful. Why didn't we think of this a long time ago? Of course that is certainly possible since those things are a matter of law. But civilized society has looked at various acts and decided which should be unlawful and which should be lawful. While what you suggest is certainly possible it is also as stupid an idea as almost all suggested by today's conservatives and the Christian Cult of Ignorance. But the fact is that abortion was examined and US society including US Christians did decide that in most cases it certainly is not murder. Fortunately many folk are capable of thinking beyond bumper sticker size sound bites. Edited by jar, : brain fartAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
....in most cases it certainly is not murder. Most cases? You mean sometimes it's self-defense? The baby is like those creatures in "Alien" that is eating its way through the woman's gut? All you are doing is what I already said: denying the reality that it is a baby that is being killed. If this simple obvious fact was recognized very few women would be willing to have an abortion. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Most cases? You mean sometimes it's self-defense? The baby is like those creatures in "Alien" that is eating its way through the woman's gut? All you are doing is what I already said: denying the reality that it is a baby that is being killed. If this simple obvious fact was recognized very few women would be willing to have an abortion. You certainly do seem to love misrepresenting what people say as much as you love misrepresenting what the Bible says. Nowhere did I mention aliens or self defense (although self defense certainly is sometimes a reasonable and recognized justification for abortion). But again the reality is that society, including US Christians, realize that there can be times when an abortion could be unlawful and in fact have passed laws specifying such instances. Not everyone is so ignorant that they swallow your unsupported assertions, misrepresentation, attempts to redirect attention, moving goal posts and other attempts to con.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh right. It's unlawful if it's reached the stage where you can no longer deny that it is a baby. But even that wasn't recognized for a long time as "partial birth abortion" was allowed, which is violently killing a fully formed baby in the process of being born. Some civilization we have now that Christianity is dead.
And then of course, if it's only a few weeks old you can call it a "fetus" and deny that it's a baby that way so there's no murder in getting rid of it. I would agree that the baby must be sacrificed for the mother's life in those extremely rare instances where a pregnancy is a real threat, but even then it's often possible to save both. How many of the fifty million abortions would fit this situation, however? Half a dozen?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Oh right. It's unlawful if it's reached the stage where you can no longer deny that it is a baby. But even that wasn't recognized for a long time as "partial birth abortion" was allowed, which is violently killing a fully formed baby in the process of being born. Some civilization we have now that Christianity is dead. Again with misrepresentation Faith. Christianity is certainly not dead and as I have said, society does recognize reality and so modifies laws.
Faith writes: And then of course, if it's only a few weeks old you can call it a "fetus" and deny that it's a baby that way so there's no murder in getting rid of it. It is called a fetus because it is not yet a baby. Amazing isn't it?
Faith writes: I would agree that the baby must be sacrificed for the mother's life in those extremely rare instances where a pregnancy is a real threat, but even then it's often possible to save both. How many of the fifty million abortions would fit this situation, however? Half a dozen? And yet more unsupported assertions. You do love them don't you Faith?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Hey I did all that myself, abandoned all that antiquated morality for the enlightened modern view... Not a good argument. The antiquated morality thought buying and selling people to keep in abusive servitude was just fine and dandy. Bought, sold or not, women were enslaved to their husbands along with his other wives. Moral credibility of zero there, Faith.
Are you aware that many women do experience emotional repercussions from abortion such as bad dreams and depression? I'm sure some women do, especially if they have a christian family that is out to destroy them for their choice. The latest studies, however, say that, in the following years, the majority of women are quite gratified at having made the right decision to abort. Keep up with the literature in the discipline, Faith. Your christian-apologetics and moral-hyperbole sites are not serving you well enough for debate.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Jesus wasn't:
The group you obviously have in mind are big on private property and capitalist economy.quote:Talk about relativism: pretending to "worship" somebody you oppose diametrically.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Right, so if we make all murder legal then there will be no more murder as you do not accept the the legal definition of murder, I guess you are no longer in favour of capital punishment?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Faith writes: If this simple obvious fact was recognized very few women would be willing to have an abortion. Yet as you noted just upthread, millions of women throughout history resorted to natural abortifacients and, less often, infanticide. It isn't that something was hidden from those women, or from women getting abortions now: they simply disagree with your notion that a fetus is a baby; there's not really much room for a propaganda conspiracy there. Thanks to anti-choice protesters outside clinics, and their aggressively intrusive, intimidating behavior--screaming, crowding, verbally abusing, shadowing, waving bloody posters--most women who have abortions are all too familiar with anti-choice sentiments. "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If this simple obvious fact was recognized very few women would be willing to have an abortion.
Yet as you noted just upthread, millions of women throughout history resorted to natural abortifacients and, less often, infanticide. As I also noted upthread, women who have abortions are often in denial, ready to accept any rationalization that will free them from the burden of the pregnancy, and yet in spite of themselves they know it's the killing of a child. This may come out in depressions and other emotional reactions, in my case a dream about a small child being driven away in a hearse. Even then I didn't grasp or admit the fact that it was a living child I'd aborted. I didn't mourn the child until many years later when I finally faced the truth. Women who get abortions are just fooling themselves. Some are hardened to it but many others couldn't do it if they faced the truth.
It isn't that something was hidden from those women, or from women getting abortions now: they simply disagree with your notion that a fetus is a baby; there's not really much room for a propaganda conspiracy there. I also "disagreed" with that idea, but that's what I'm calling denial and rationalization. It IS a child, that's the fact people are refusing to face. The desire not to be burdened with a child is enough of a conspiracy, especially when shared by others and the men in the women's lives.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
The group you obviously have in mind are big on private property and capitalist economy. That's odd, I heard that their leader actually attacked a group of entrepreneurs with a whip, and that his followers formed a communist society. It's all in this book called ... what is it? ... the Bibble, I think. You should definitely read it.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Righto. Murder is to be preferred to antiquated morality that says murder is a bad thing, or daring to suggest -- horrors! -- that sex should be confined to marriage. Murdering babies in the millions -- I think it's up to something like fifty million since Roe v Wade -- somehow that's better than old-fashioned sexual morality ... But Faith, it is your views on the morality of abortion that are new-fangled. Before some time in the 1970s, Protestants by and large based their views on Biblical teaching rather than Catholic dogma.
The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal How abortion became an evangelical issue This doesn't necessarily mean that their current views are wrong, but it does mean that they are not in fact That Old-Time Religion.
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
vimesey writes: women in the Sudan can be flogged (though in this particular instance, she wasn't) for wearing trousers. To our Western way of thinking, how outrageously ridiculous (perhaps cruel) does a cultural law have to be, before our objections to it become legitimate, in the eyes of a cultural relativist ? I'm not a "cultural relativist," but I think the problem wouldn't be that the objection isn't legitimate, it's that it's based on imposing our standards on someone else's culture instead of trying to uphold the standard in our own. That is, our attention to the shortcomings of other nations' laws and customs is a way of ignoring the shortcomings of our own. Do we fully recognize the personhood and value of women in Western cultures, or are we satisfied with the way they're treated because, after all, we don't whip them for wearing pants?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Do we fully recognize the personhood and value of women in Western cultures, or are we satisfied with the way they're treated because, after all, we don't whip them for wearing pants? Right, because it is impossible to both note our own shortcomings and to also identify some short comings of others as being even worse. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes: Right, because it is impossible to both note our own shortcomings and to also identify some short comings of others as being even worse. Well, of course we're so noble we want to help other cultures with their even-worse shortcomings while we conscientiously continue to progress in every way possible. We'd be hypocrites if we didn't. Really.
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