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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
Faith
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Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 96 (741345)
11-11-2014 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
11-11-2014 3:44 PM


I think you are referring to the Jefferson quote and misattributing it to Lincoln. Jefferson didn't quote Jesus but he did express the Biblical concept that God will judge a nation for its sins, slavery in this case.

Lincoln quoted Jesus's saying "Offenses must come but woe to those by whom they come" -- the offenses being slavery, and the woe being God's judgment on those who support slavery.

Um, no, I don't believe that Lincoln is to be believed because he was President, I believe the fact should be respected that an American President expressed a true Biblical precept that was well recognized and accepted by Christians in general in his day and that he was one of many Presidents who understood and quoted the Bible as guide to the nation back in the day.

Also Lincoln did not start the war, the South did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 3:44 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 4:03 PM Faith has responded
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2014 12:33 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4349
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 62 of 96 (741347)
11-11-2014 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
11-11-2014 3:52 PM


Faith writes:

I think you are referring to the Jefferson quote and misattributing it to Lincoln. Jefferson didn't quote Jesus but he did express the Biblical concept that God will judge a nation for its sins, slavery in this case.

You're right. Sorry

Faith writes:

Um, no, I don't believe that Lincoln is to be believed because he was President, I believe the fact should be respected that an American President expressed a true Biblical precept that was well recognized and accepted by Christians in general in his day and that he was one of many Presidents who understood and quoted the Bible as guide to the nation back in the day.

Which again of course holds true for President Obama when he used the quote I used as a signature.

Faith writes:

Also Lincoln did not start the war, the South did.

You did say that Lincoln saw it as God's judgement and from that I think that you are inferring that the war was God personally pleased with the way that judgement was exercised. I profoundly disagree with that statement.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 3:52 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 96 (741352)
11-11-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by GDR
11-11-2014 4:03 PM


It's a tradition for Presidents to quote the Bible or sound Christian. But Obama didn't say anything about God's judgment. The point I'm trying to make here is that God's judgment on nations is not some weird oddball idea of my own, or my own peculiar "sect" as people like to call it here, but a very traditional Christian principle that comes from the Bible, which ought to be recognized from the fact that both Lincoln and Jefferson believed it quite seriously and applied it to the sin of slavery in the US.

I don't get what you are saying about God being pleased with the war? War is horrible, and God's judgments are horrible, that's why He tells us to warn people when it's coming in the hope of bringing them to repentance. The lists of things that will happen to Israel if they fail to keep God's law is scary: famine, war, invasion by foreigners, economic disaster. I think it's Deut 9 and Lev 26 but I need to check.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Theodoric
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Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 64 of 96 (741363)
11-11-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
11-10-2014 4:31 PM


We figure the Civil War was judgment because of slavery, which was the main issue it was fought over.

Slavery was just one of the issues and not the main. The two main issues were, the economic differences between the north and the south, and states rights versus federal rights. Slavery was one manifestation of both of these issues but not the only manifestation.

Also, the institution of slavery itself was not the biggest factor in the slavery debate. The expansion or non-expansion of slavery was one of the issues that pushed the tipping point. If the southern states had agreed not to expand slavery the Civil War would never have happened. A future conflict may have happened but the economic infeasibility of slavery may have prevented a future conflict from happening. Slavery may have died a slow death until the dead enders were forced to change either by law or force of arms. Either way it would have been a much smaller and less traumatic break. I am not saying that that alternative history would have been better, just that it would have been different.

You have to be very careful when you state that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. Few things in history are black and white. There are many nuances and many other issues that tie in and wrap around each other.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-11-2014 8:36 PM Theodoric has responded
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 1:46 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 65 of 96 (741365)
11-11-2014 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 12:00 PM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
In some sense, the South never completely recovered from its beating. King Cotton was dead, and entire caste system was outlawed, and large portions of the south never figured out a substitute. A number of the deepest Southern states are among the poorest, leas educated, sucking off of the federal teat states in the Union.

All of these things would have happened without the Civil War. Slavery was an nonviable economic system before the war. All of the problems you mention come from the pre-civil war society of the south. The collapse of the southern economy was inevitable. Whether the north could have facilitated a slow soft landing remains a question. I think ultimately the south would have lashed out some how no matter what.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 12:00 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 66 of 96 (741366)
11-11-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 12:05 PM


But the idea that slavery was just a side issue is complete, Lost Cause, horse ca-ca.

In a sense it was a side issue. That the whole southern economy was based on slavery makes it a very large side issue. Slavery was a manifestation of the real issues of the economic differences and states right issues.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 12:05 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 6:29 PM Theodoric has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 67 of 96 (741367)
11-11-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Theodoric
11-11-2014 6:27 PM


The importation of slaves had already been outlawed in the US before the Civil War.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:27 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 68 of 96 (741368)
11-11-2014 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
11-11-2014 6:29 PM


The importation of slaves had already been outlawed in the US before the Civil War.

Yes, and pressure to reopen the international slave trade helped to radicalize the south even further.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 6:29 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 69 of 96 (741371)
11-11-2014 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Theodoric
11-11-2014 6:18 PM


Slavery was just one of the issues and not the main.

Er ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:18 PM Theodoric has responded

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 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 8:47 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 70 of 96 (741372)
11-11-2014 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
11-11-2014 8:36 PM


It is a difficult nuanced thing. The thread you link to does not go counter to anything I have said here. States rights and the economic issues were tied around slavery. Without slavery there would not have been a civil war, that being said slavery was not the sole cause of the civil war.

Looking back at my arguments here I guess I did not express them as well as I could have. The point I am trying to make is that it is easy to just state that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. That is a simplistic and naive argument. Slavery was the linchpin that all the causes revolved around, but in no way was the sole cause.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-11-2014 8:36 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 11:09 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10061
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 71 of 96 (741378)
11-11-2014 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Theodoric
11-11-2014 8:47 PM


in no way the sole cause

Okay I can agree with this. I'd also suggest that slavery ended up being the sole issue over which the sides could not compromise. Once the Missouri Compromise was undone in the Dred Scott decision, there was no way to settle the differences between North and South over the expansion of slavery to either sides satisfaction. In fact that problem led directly to Lincoln's election despite his receiving not one electoral vote from a southern state.

Even after secession, the issue of what would happen in the territories and what was to happen to runaway slaves was probably going to lead to shooting.

I won't bother with responding to your other posts given what you say here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 96 (741387)
11-12-2014 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Theodoric
11-11-2014 6:18 PM


We figure the Civil War was judgment because of slavery, which was the main issue it was fought over.

You have to be very careful when you state that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. Few things in history are black and white. There are many nuances and many other issues that tie in and wrap around each other.

Yes, and I'm aware there were other causes. I said "main issue," not "only."

But I don't see why it matters in this context which is that Lincoln considered the war to be God's judgment for slavery, and Jefferson had earlier believed that God would eventually have to judge the nation for slavery. Perhaps some of the other issues involved God's judgment as well, or maybe not, but the idea here is that slavery certainly did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:18 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 73 of 96 (741404)
11-12-2014 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
11-12-2014 1:46 AM


And where is your support?
Learn to think Faith.

No one has disputed that people think the US Civil War was punishment by the God you try to market. But that is not evidence that the US Civil War was punishment by the God you try to market.

In fact, your post supports the position that there were many very normal, secular, human causes for the US Civil War. No God need apply.

Tour task is not to show that people believe a fantasy but rather actual evidence that would support your contention.

Why did your vile evil God punish many more non-slave owners than owners?

Why did your vile evil God punish the slaves themselves?

Why did only the US get punished and not Cuba, Jamaica, the Virgin Islands, Bermuda ...


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 1:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10061
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 74 of 96 (741448)
11-12-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
11-12-2014 8:20 AM


Re: And where is your support?
Why did only the US get punished and not Cuba, Jamaica, the Virgin Islands, Bermuda ...

Good question.

Fundamentalists believe that the United States is essentially the Western inheritors of all of the OT promises made to Israel. So its kinda similar to how you discipline your own kids but not the neighbors kids when they break into your Boone's Farm stash.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 8:20 AM jar has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 75 of 96 (741450)
11-12-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 11:09 PM


NoNukes writes:

Even after secession, the issue of what would happen in the territories and what was to happen to runaway slaves was probably going to lead to shooting.


What led inevitably to shooting, in my humble Canadian opinion, was the fact that the states had their own armies ("militias"). In Canada, the provinces can disagree "violently" with the federal government or with each other but they can't do anything about it.

Maybe the Civil War was God's punishment for having a flawed constitution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 11:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2014 12:14 PM ringo has responded

  
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