Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 661 of 732 (787269)
07-08-2016 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by xongsmith
07-08-2016 2:50 AM


Re: objectivity
.yet, this memorial to the fallen Confederate soldiers is somehow being construed, by even folks here in EvC of all places, as an evil thing and therefore should be destroyed.

I can recall a single comment from a poster saying that the monument in question should be destroyed. AZPaul said something like that early on, but I have not and I don't recall ringo making such a statement either. Percy is complaining about the monument being either damaged during the move or being put away out of sight.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by xongsmith, posted 07-08-2016 2:50 AM xongsmith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by xongsmith, posted 07-08-2016 5:12 PM NoNukes has responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 662 of 732 (787280)
07-08-2016 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by NoNukes
07-08-2016 2:20 PM


Re: objectivity
If they can move it to the Cave Hill Cemetery safely, fine.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2016 2:20 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2016 6:34 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 663 of 732 (787282)
07-08-2016 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by xongsmith
07-08-2016 5:12 PM


Re: objectivity
If they can move it to the Cave Hill Cemetery safely, fine.

Wikipedia has documented a number of changes to the status of the monument during our discussion here. The latest is that the statute stays put until a new site is chosen.

quote:
At a hearing on May 25, 2016, citing lack of evidence to issue an injunction, the Circuit Court Judge dissolved the temporary restraining order. The City of Louisville agreed to hold the removal until the Judge completed her written ruling.[61] Judge Judith McDonald-Burkman dismissed the lawsuit on June 20, 2016, allowing the city to remove the monument. Mayor Fischer stated no work would proceed until the city art commission had met and chosen a new site

Description of the monument.

quote:
The infantryman located at the top of the column is 95-inches-tall, and in a relaxed position with his rifle. The two side figures near the base of the monument are 70-inches-tall. The east side artillerist is holding a ramrod with swab, and the west side cavalryman holds a partially unsheathed sword. "Our Confederate Dead, 1861-1865" and "Tribute to the Rank and File of the Armies of the South" are inscribed on the north and south face respectively. On the north face is a bronze medallion of the Great Seal of the Confederate States of America

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by xongsmith, posted 07-08-2016 5:12 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 664 of 732 (787298)
07-09-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by xongsmith
07-08-2016 2:50 AM


Re: objectivity
xongsmith writes:

... this memorial to the fallen Confederate soldiers is somehow being construed, by even folks here in EvC of all places, as an evil thing and therefore should be destroyed.


It's not an evil thing in and of itself. It's a monument to an evil thing. It's like a "tribute" to John Wayne Gacy.

I, for one, have not suggested destroying anything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by xongsmith, posted 07-08-2016 2:50 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 665 of 732 (787391)
07-12-2016 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 645 by ringo
07-07-2016 11:49 AM


Re: Slavery is not similar to genocide
ringo writes:

It isn't a discussion of whether it "should" be described as genocide. The fact is that it has been described as genocide. We don't have people vociferously denying that it was genocide. We're mostly past denial.

Actually, you do have people denying it, and it hasn't yet made your government's list of genocides.

ringo writes:

bluegenes writes:

Do you think that the Aboriginal slave cultures were guilty of genocide?

Quite possibly they were. What does that have to do with anything? Does that justify us committing genocide?

Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime. Therefore, we could see how culturecide (genocide to you) against enslaving aboriginal groups could be justified.

Back more on topic. In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world.

BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by ringo, posted 07-07-2016 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by ringo, posted 07-13-2016 11:52 AM bluegenes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 666 of 732 (787427)
07-13-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 665 by bluegenes
07-12-2016 2:05 AM


Re: Slavery is not similar to genocide
bluegenes writes:

Actually, you do have people denying it....


Sez you. Reference, please.

bluegenes writes:

Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime.


The North didn't set out to destroy the Southern culture, only one aspect of it.

bluegenes writes:

In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world.


I have not suggested destroying anything.

bluegenes writes:

BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians?


YECs are not a culture.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by bluegenes, posted 07-12-2016 2:05 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by bluegenes, posted 07-20-2016 3:47 AM ringo has responded
 Message 668 by bluegenes, posted 07-20-2016 5:43 AM ringo has responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 667 of 732 (787655)
07-20-2016 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 666 by ringo
07-13-2016 11:52 AM


Re: Slavery is not similar to genocide
ringo writes:

bluegenes writes:

ringo writes:

It isn't a discussion of whether it "should" be described as genocide. The fact is that it has been described as genocide. We don't have people vociferously denying that it was genocide. We're mostly past denial.

Actually, you do have people denying it, and it hasn't yet made your government's list of genocides.

Sez you. Reference, please.

It's not on your government's list, and there's plenty of discussion about it, and you certainly do have people "vociferously denying that it was genocide" and people denying that there was a "cultural genocide", and debating what, if anything, "cultural genocide" is.

http://news.nationalpost.com/...r-war-crimes-prosecutor-says

http://www.ucobserver.org/features/2014/03/canadian_genocide

You'll find plenty of vociferous denial in the comments on the articles, and your museum of human rights, like your government, has yet to acknowledge this "genocide".

Yet the case for genocide of at least some Amerindian groups in North America is far better than any case that could be made for its rapidly expanding historical African population.

ringo writes:

bluegenes writes:

Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime.

The North didn't set out to destroy the Southern culture, only one aspect of it.

The North would hardly be practising culturecide on any aspects of culture shared by the two, and it was certainly an important aspect.

The transatlantic slave traders weren't deliberately destroying any aspects of any western and central African cultures.

ringo writes:

bluegenes writes:

In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world.

I have not suggested destroying anything.

You seem to be in two minds on the subject. For example:

ringo writes:

I've been consistent on that: no memorials to the SS, no memorials to Confederates, no memorials to Saddam, no memorials to serial killers, etc.

It's difficult to see how that could be achieved without destroying memorials.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by ringo, posted 07-13-2016 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 12:05 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 668 of 732 (787656)
07-20-2016 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 666 by ringo
07-13-2016 11:52 AM


Are YECs experiencing a "genocide"?
ringo writes:

bluegenes writes:

BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians?

YECs are not a culture.

Why not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by ringo, posted 07-13-2016 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 12:09 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 669 of 732 (787681)
07-20-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by bluegenes
07-20-2016 3:47 AM


Re: Slavery is not similar to genocide
bluegenes writes:

It's not on your government's list, and there's plenty of discussion about it, and you certainly do have people "vociferously denying that it was genocide" and people denying that there was a "cultural genocide", and debating what, if anything, "cultural genocide" is.


So the definition of genocide isn't as cut and dried as you've been claiming it is. There is a controversy. There are people besides me who are saying that our treatment of the aboriginal people was (is) genocide.

Yes, we have people denying it. We also have people denying that they are racist. Denial isn't a very strong argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by bluegenes, posted 07-20-2016 3:47 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 670 of 732 (787682)
07-20-2016 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by bluegenes
07-20-2016 5:43 AM


Re: Are YECs experiencing a "genocide"?
bluegenes writes:

ringo writes:

YECs are not a culture.


Why not?

They're a subculture, if you like. I have no problem with eliminating subcultures like the Mafia or the Manson family. If you put up a monument to Charles Manson, I wouldn't support destroying it but I'd support moving it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by bluegenes, posted 07-20-2016 5:43 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16294
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 671 of 732 (808505)
05-11-2017 9:40 AM


New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Here's a recent Washington Post article: Jefferson Davis disappears as New Orleans removes another tribute to the Confederacy

We seem to be trying to wipe out remembrances that the Confederacy was once venerated. It's feels more like a revising or whitewashing of history rather than a way of showing that the monuments don't reflect modern attitudes. A hundred years ago Jefferson Davis and his cause were venerated in New Orleans and they erected a statue, but letting that statue remain standing doesn't mean the cause is still venerated today, and it's a record of history. It, and the other monuments that have disappeared and will disappear, should have been left standing.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by vimesey, posted 05-11-2017 10:23 AM Percy has responded
 Message 674 by jar, posted 05-11-2017 10:50 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 675 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 11:37 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 672 of 732 (808507)
05-11-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by Percy
05-11-2017 9:40 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Perhaps the middle ground might be to allow monuments to the Confederacy to stay, provided there is erected next to them, equally prominently, a monument to the lynched/enslaved/murdered slaves/people of colour who suffered as a result of the Confederacy. In other words "ok, remember it, but remember it all."

(I am at work at the moment, and haven't time to read the full thread, so apologies if this has been raised and covered before).


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 9:40 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16294
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 673 of 732 (808514)
05-11-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by vimesey
05-11-2017 10:23 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
vimesey writes:

(I am at work at the moment, and haven't time to read the full thread, so apologies if this has been raised and covered before).

The thread is kind of long and had gotten into a digression when last active, so I don't think there's any need to read the whole thing.

Perhaps the middle ground might be to allow monuments to the Confederacy to stay, provided there is erected next to them, equally prominently, a monument to the lynched/enslaved/murdered slaves/people of colour who suffered as a result of the Confederacy. In other words "ok, remember it, but remember it all."

Yes, that has been mentioned before. I think preserving ancient monuments while putting them in context would be fine, but you're thinking of these as monuments of remembrance and veneration to the South, which of course they are, but I'm also considering the context of when the monuments were actually erected. The Jefferson statue was erected only a hundred years ago, more than a half century after the Civil War. It stands as a record of the fact that the Southern cause was still venerated then. Any plaque erected next to the statue should include this. Removing the statue just makes it more difficult to preserve this part of our history.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by vimesey, posted 05-11-2017 10:23 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2017 12:29 PM Percy has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 674 of 732 (808515)
05-11-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by Percy
05-11-2017 9:40 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Americans are basically ignorant, uneducated and incapable of critical thought.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 675 of 732 (808528)
05-11-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by Percy
05-11-2017 9:40 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
. . . but letting that statue remain standing doesn't mean the cause is still venerated today . . .

And yet racism and the Confederacy are still venerated today by white supremacist groups in the South and elsewhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 9:40 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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