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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 691 of 728 (808910)
05-14-2017 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Percy
05-14-2017 8:52 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
It's a way of hiding history.

Let's stop doing that ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by Percy, posted 05-14-2017 8:52 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
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Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 692 of 728 (808916)
05-14-2017 9:17 PM


Funny thing is that back when I was in school, we learned pretty well how horrible slavery was, how Southern culture was based deeply upon the horrors of slavery, and how national politics was dominated by the issue of slavery right up to the Civil War. And we learned this in...southeast Alaska where we had no Confederate monuments at all.

In fact, the people fighting to keep the monuments? They are the ones trying to whitewash history and present the antebellum South as some kind of Uncle Reemus fantasy land.

The ones who are trying to remove the symbols and monuments glorifying the "Lost Cause" are the ones trying to maintain an appropriate focus on the real horror in our actual history.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-14-2017 9:55 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 693 of 728 (808918)
05-14-2017 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by Chiroptera
05-14-2017 9:17 PM


Funny thing is that back when I was in school, we learned pretty well how horrible slavery was, how Southern culture was based deeply upon the horrors of slavery, and how national politics was dominated by the issue of slavery right up to the Civil War. And we learned this in...southeast Alaska where we had no Confederate monuments at all.
In fact, the people fighting to keep the monuments? They are the ones trying to whitewash history and present the antebellum South as some kind of Uncle Reemus fantasy land.

The ones who are trying to remove the symbols and monuments glorifying the "Lost Cause" are the ones trying to maintain an appropriate focus on the real horror in our actual history.

Just curious: How do you know?

That is, how do you know that you're right that they're really trying to hide their true selves and are not being honest, and that your, far-removed, perspective is actually the correct one?

'Cause at face-value; I'll believe them over you, no offense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by Chiroptera, posted 05-14-2017 9:17 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2017 11:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9924
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 694 of 728 (808926)
05-14-2017 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by New Cat's Eye
05-14-2017 9:55 PM


That is, how do you know that you're right that they're really trying to hide their true selves and are not being honest, and that your, far-removed, perspective is actually the correct one?

I don't think there is a question regarding honesty here. I am willing to take the protests of the statue supporters at face value. But the question of whether their views are historically correct and whether the 'Lost Cause' view of the civil war is incorrect is a question that has largely been decided by academics and historians. The history that these folks revere is horrific and the culture they celebrate, barbaric and completely inseparable from the worst abuse this side of the holocaust. Even if folks are honest about celebrating only the heroic portions of that history, then celebrations are a white-wash regardless of honest intent or honorable motives.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-14-2017 9:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 9:46 AM NoNukes has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 695 of 728 (808971)
05-15-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by NoNukes
05-14-2017 11:23 PM


I don't think there is a question regarding honesty here.

It was right there in the post I replied to:

quote:
In fact, the people fighting to keep the monuments? They are the ones trying to whitewash history and present the antebellum South as some kind of Uncle Reemus fantasy land.

The ones who are trying to remove the symbols and monuments glorifying the "Lost Cause" are the ones trying to maintain an appropriate focus on the real horror in our actual history.


There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there.

I am willing to take the protests of the statue supporters at face value. But the question of whether their views are historically correct and whether the 'Lost Cause' view of the civil war is incorrect is a question that has largely been decided by academics and historians.

If they are simply wrong about the facts of the matter, then they're not trying to hide the real horror of actual history by whitewashing it with a fantasy - they're just wrong (I'm not convinced that they are, but that's beside the point).

The history that these folks revere is horrific and the culture they celebrate, barbaric and completely inseparable from the worst abuse this side of the holocaust.

Just like most of history...

The American Revolution, Columbus discovering America, etc. It was brutal and horrific, yes. Let's not hide that.

Even if folks are honest about celebrating only the heroic portions of that history, then celebrations are a white-wash regardless of honest intent or honorable motives.

Perhaps, but it assumes you're correct about the history.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2017 11:23 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 05-15-2017 12:12 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 699 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2017 12:53 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 696 of 728 (808996)
05-15-2017 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by New Cat's Eye
05-15-2017 9:46 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:

There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there.


I'm buying it. There's a lot of denial and self-delusion involved but white Southerners are definitely trying to sweep real history under the rug in favor of something less painful and more "glorious".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 9:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 12:35 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 697 of 728 (809004)
05-15-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by ringo
05-15-2017 12:12 PM


I'm buying it. There's a lot of denial and self-delusion involved but white Southerners are definitely trying to sweep real history under the rug in favor of something less painful and more "glorious".

Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 05-15-2017 12:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by ringo, posted 05-15-2017 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 698 of 728 (809005)
05-15-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by New Cat's Eye
05-15-2017 12:35 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence?


What would constitute evidence of self-delusion?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 2:20 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9924
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 699 of 728 (809009)
05-15-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by New Cat's Eye
05-15-2017 9:46 AM


If they are simply wrong about the facts of the matter, then they're not trying to hide the real horror of actual history by whitewashing it with a fantasy - they're just wrong

It is in fact a fantasy. The Lost Cause is a fully developed and BS version of the history before and including the civil war.

There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there.

Some southerners, yes. Your doubts are based on what exactly?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 9:46 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 700 of 728 (809010)
05-15-2017 12:57 PM


Confederate Monuments Worth Keeping
In the editorial The Meaning of Our Confederate ‘Monuments’ in today's New York Times author Gary Shapiro argues for what he calls the "contextualist position." Focusing on Richmond's Monument Avenue he concludes:

quote:
Mere erasure would be a form of historical denial.

Destroying or removing the structures eliminates opportunities for productively using our past. Critical contextualization is the better alternative. This would be a complex process, drawing on the skills and judgment of historians, artists, urban planners and a good cross-section of local residents. Much could be added: plaques concerning the war itself, disputes over slavery, Richmond’s and Virginia’s roles in the Confederacy, Reconstruction (and its abrupt termination following the 1876 election deal), African-American disenfranchisement, the blatant racism surrounding the statues’ planning and dedication.

The wide green medians on the avenue provide open space for new sculptures of those who resisted slavery, the Confederacy, the institution of Jim Crow. Representative or anonymous victims of white supremacy could be remembered. Perhaps America can begin to become great by acknowledging and confronting its past with thoughtful monuments, memorials and critical interventions.


--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2017 11:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 704 by Taq, posted 05-16-2017 12:07 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 701 of 728 (809024)
05-15-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by ringo
05-15-2017 12:40 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence?


What would constitute evidence of self-delusion?

You tell me - what are you basing your conclusion on?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by ringo, posted 05-15-2017 12:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by ringo, posted 05-16-2017 11:40 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 702 of 728 (809130)
05-16-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by New Cat's Eye
05-15-2017 2:20 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

You tell me - what are you basing your conclusion on?


quote:
There was a land of Cavaliers and Cotton Fields called the Old South... Here in this pretty world Gallantry took its last bow... Here was the last ever to be seen of Knights and their Ladies Fair, of Master and of Slave... Look for it only in books, for it is no more than a dream remembered. A Civilization gone with the wind...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 703 of 728 (809137)
05-16-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 700 by Percy
05-15-2017 12:57 PM


Re: Confederate Monuments Worth Puttin Up
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing prominent monuments to white Southerners who resisted the Confederacy by engaging in acts of sabotage, helping escaped Union POWs get to the north, and forming guerilla units.

I admit it's not so much for history as much as it's to see the good ol' boys scream.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Percy, posted 05-15-2017 12:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-16-2017 12:10 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 704 of 728 (809141)
05-16-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Percy
05-15-2017 12:57 PM


Re: Confederate Monuments Worth Keeping
Percy writes:

In the editorial The Meaning of Our Confederate ‘Monuments’ in today's New York Times author Gary Shapiro argues for what he calls the "contextualist position." Focusing on Richmond's Monument Avenue he concludes:

There is also a social and cultural context that can't be ignored. These statues are and were venerated by white nationalists. These statues are not simply historical relics that communicate about our past, but are political and propaganda tools used by racist organizations.

It's one thing to have a museum detailing the Holocaust. It is yet another to have a massive statue of Hitler in the town square that is venerated by Neo-Nazis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Percy, posted 05-15-2017 12:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 705 of 728 (809143)
05-16-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Chiroptera
05-16-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Confederate Monuments Worth Puttin Up
I admit it's not so much for history as much as it's to see the good ol' boys scream.

Ah, so you don't know; you're just prejudiced


This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2017 11:57 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2017 5:02 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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