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Author Topic:   The Disgusting Berkeley Riots
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9447
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 196 of 275 (801000)
03-02-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:35 PM


Re: targets
Apparently I got all the other examples right, but the Garner case changed after our discussion from accidental death to homicide.

No, it did not. You lie.

It doesn't matter whether it was an accident or a homicide as far as not providing an excuse for BLM, just as none of the other cases did. Besides, doesn't homicide imply intention?

If you ran over someone while driving because you accidentally hit the accelerated instead of the brakes, don't you think you would be prosecuted? Do you have any clue about the law?

I am an idiot. I am attempting to argue facts and law with a moron.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:45 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 197 of 275 (801001)
03-02-2017 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by NoNukes
03-02-2017 1:32 PM


Re: targets
Yes I didn't read carefully. Homicide still doesn't fit the facts, it's too extreme. BUT AGAIN, it doesn't matter. If justice was done how does that give BLM a case. OK, if they brought it about, fine, they had ONE case to justify their protest. None of the others I listed justify it. If there is justification it isn't in those cases.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2017 1:32 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2017 1:59 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 204 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 7:40 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 198 of 275 (801002)
03-02-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by NoNukes
03-02-2017 1:37 PM


Re: targets
If I ran over someone by accident it wouldn't be called homicide. Probably manslaughter or something like that.

What lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2017 1:37 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2017 1:57 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2017 2:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 202 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-02-2017 2:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9447
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 199 of 275 (801006)
03-02-2017 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:45 PM


Re: targets
Homicide is the killing of a person by another human being. Period.

Faith writes:

If I ran over someone by accident it wouldn't be called homicide. Probably manslaughter or something like that.

Both terms are appropriate.

quote:
Vehicular homicide is a crime that involves the death of a person other than the driver as a result of either criminally negligent or murderous operation of a motor vehicle. In cases of criminal negligence, the defendant is commonly charged with unintentional vehicular manslaughter.

Note that intent is not required. Negligence is sufficient.

In the case of Eric Garner, a homicide might still be justifiable, in which case, the killer might still not be punished. The purpose of pointing out that the death was a homicide was to indicate that your statement Garner expired from a medical condition was pure fabrication. It is also a lie because there was no official ruling that his death was an accident rather than a homicide. The ruling did not change. It is also the case that intent is not required for prosecution.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9447
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 200 of 275 (801007)
03-02-2017 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:43 PM


Re: targets
If justice was done how does that give BLM a case.

Are you really this stupid?

Justice was not done. Eric Garner was dead, and nobody was punished. Instead the city of New York had to pony up millions of dollars of tax money to partially compensate the victim's family?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15790
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 201 of 275 (801009)
03-02-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:45 PM


Re: targets
If I ran over someone by accident it wouldn't be called homicide.

Yes it would, if you killed him.

---

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homicide

Definition of homicide
1
: a person who kills another
2
: a killing of one human being by another

---

http://criminal.findlaw.com/...rges/homicide-definition.html

To begin with, not all homicides are crimes. Homicides include all killings of humans. Many homicides, such as murder and manslaughter, violate criminal laws. Others, such as a killing committed in justified self-defense, are not criminal. Illegal killings range from manslaughter to murder, with multiple degrees of each representing the gravity of the crime.

---

This was a homicide because he was killed by a person and not by natural causes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11250
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 202 of 275 (801010)
03-02-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:45 PM


Re: targets
If I ran over someone by accident it wouldn't be called homicide. Probably manslaughter or something like that.

Manslaughter is a type of homicide.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12575
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 203 of 275 (801011)
03-02-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:35 PM


Re: targets
quote:

You obviously don't recall the original discussion, where I got into all the issues quite deeply

Then perhaps you can show me what in this discussion justifies writing it off as just an accident without considering issues of negligence.

quote:

and all you care about is finding something to accuse me of. Typical, of course, and typically underhanded

Look Faith we know what a nasty little liar you are. There is no need to keep on demonstrating it.

quote:

I considered all the issues as presented in the news at the time, that were discussed here too.

And what facts lead you to dismiss any possibility that the policeman was guilty despite using an unapproved hold and ignoring clear signs of distress ?

quote:

Apparently I got all the other examples right


That is hardly a safe assumption

quote:

It doesn't matter whether it was an accident or a homicide as far as not providing an excuse for BLM

So you say is no excuse for protesting the number of unarmed blacks killed by the police - often in questionable circumstances. I think that is exactly the sort of thing that should be protested.

quote:

Besides, doesn't homicide imply intention?

No


Criminal homicide takes many forms including accidental or purposeful murdeR

Wikipedia

Murder requires intent, but homicide includes manslaughter.

Edited by PaulK, : Correct tag


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 204 of 275 (801032)
03-02-2017 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
03-02-2017 1:43 PM


the big picture
Homicide still doesn't fit the facts, it's too extreme.

-cide - killer of

Genocide - killing a 'genus' of people - a 'kind' - eg a race
Fratricide - killing your sibling {ie brother, as in fraternity}, sometimes including symbolic brothers such as fellow soldiers.
Patricide / Matricide - killing father or mother respectively
Regicide - killing royalty - or more generally 'a ruler' - as in 'regal'.
Suicide - killing yourself - sui - meaning yourself in Latin. Not many common examples, sui generis (of his own kind)
Pesicide - killing pests - see also fungicide (fungi), herbicide (vegetation) and insecticide
Infanticide - killing an infant
Tyranicide - like regicide only a tyrant. Killing Hitler might have been described this way, had say Operation Valkyrie succeeded.. The killing of Julius Caeser likewise.
Deicide - killing a god. Arguably the execution of Jesus might be considered deicide. As Deus, Deity. Deus Pater - Jupiter - Father God.
Spermicide - a chemical that 'kills' sperm, used in contraceptive materials such as condoms.

Homocide - killing a human, as in 'homo'.

Homocide can be negligent (such as not feeding or medicating someone in your care, or failing to maintain something that fails resulting in death), it can be accidental. It can also be legal and morally defensible (see justifiable homicide. A cop that kills a person who is threatening people with a gun may have been involved in a justifiable homicide).

With regards to black lives matter:

If justice was done how does that give BLM a case. OK, if they brought it about, fine, they had ONE case to justify their protest.

Well here's the thing - specific incidents may inflame tensions. They may get media coverage and be a key talking point. But that isn't the driving force behind BLM. Let's take a look at overall numbers. In 2015 there were about 1,000 people killed in the US by police. 500 of them were white. 260 black. 170 Hispanic.

This is disproportional to the population sizes. If it were proportional it'd be the case that 720 were white, 130 were black and 160 were Hispanic. It seems white people are less likely to be killed by the police and black people are more likely to be killed by police. The Hispanic numbers are 'about right'.

The protest was primarily aimed at bringing attention to, and hoping to change, this disproportionality.

There are some (potentially) good arguments as to why this disproportionality exists, but I think (as do the BLM movement) they ultimately fail. Yes, black people and cops are disproportionally more likely to interact, but this is its own problem as there are statistics, and testimony, that black people get stopped and searched, questioned etc more regularly than white people.

Again, sometimes a certain case is held up for illustrative purposes to show an example of what the statistics are saying in aggregate. For instance:

In this 6 minute video a white man walks down the street with an AR-15 in an open carry state (Texas). He is politely questioned by police the white man and his associates ask questions and allow the officer to inspect the AR-15 and ultimately they are allowed on their way {actually not all of this is in the short version, there is a longer version of the white person's encounter that contains this}. A black man does the same, and the police yell at him - hold him at gunpoint tell him to get on the ground along with his unarmed pregnant black wife. Several police vehicles with sirens turn up, a canine unit arrives. They are both detained but not arrested. It was a tense few minutes and I'd be scared out of my mind in the latter encounter. I can see how mistakes could happen on either side leading to less fortunate results.

This is not necessarily representative, it could be unfairly edited for instance, but is illustrative of the overall impression that many black people have of how they are treated differently - showing viscerally what the cold statistics show numerically.

Black Lives Matters is not 'and therefore white ones {or 'blue' ones} don't'. As a movement it gained quite a size and undoubtedly some angry, violent and even racist members - just like with right-wing organisations joined in. The movement itself however isn't asking for more white and hispanic people to get shot, but to try to raise awareness to lower the number of black people getting shot - and to have their deaths treated the same as when white people are killed.

This isn't necessarily because 'cops are racist' as individuals, although likely some are, it is a systemic and cultural issue of which these differences in numbers and encounters are symptoms.

Of those 1,000 deaths in 2015 - it is undoubtedly the case that least some of them were unjustified. That's just inevitable. And if the number in 2015 is reflective of other years, that probability goes up year on year. How many officers were held criminally liable for any of these deaths? I'm not entirely sure, but in the 10 year window from 2005 and 2015 if the rate is 1,000 a year - 10,000 people were killed by cops. 13 cops were convicted of murder or manslaughter. If you arm your cops with firearms routinely, that's the price you have to pay - more people being killed per decade than were killed in the 9/11 attacks or all of terrorism in the US in general.

As a point of comparison, the UK, since the year 2000 has had 41 people killed by police. I can list them:

Yassar Yaqub
Lewis Skelton
Josh Pitt
Dalian Atkinson
William Smith
James Wilson
Jermaine Baker
Richard Davies
James Fox
Dean Joseph
Anthony Grainger
Mark Duggan
Kingsley Burrell
Jimmy Mubenga
Olaseni Lewis
Keith Richards
Ian Tomlinson
Mervyn Tussler
David Sycamore
Andrew Hammond
Sean Rigg
Habib Ullah
Mark Saunders
Dayniel Tucker
Ann Sanderson
Terry Nicholas
Robert Haines
Steven Colwell
Philip Marsden
Craig King
Jean Charles de Menezes
John Mark Scott
Azelle Rodney
Simon Murden
Nicholas Palmer
Philip Prout
Keith Larkins
Derek Bennett
Andrew Kernan
Patrick O'Donell
Kirk Davies

There is a cultural problem at stake here, and if you are prepared to take on the responsibility of an armed nation and the associated armed police force, you have take responsibility to face these kinds of issues. Is it unreasonable to suppose that human biases, unconscious or systematically reinforced might need addressing through conscious action and awareness raising?

There was someone shot at Berkeley University Riots, to try to find someway to tie this into the topic. The police tried to be hands off to avoid deaths or further injury. They were criticised in some circles for this stand-off approach.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 1:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:16 PM Modulous has responded
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:36 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 205 of 275 (801033)
03-02-2017 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Modulous
03-02-2017 7:40 PM


Re: the big picture
That's a very nice overview and I get your point. It would have been good to have that spelled out a lot sooner before the specifics we were debating got argued into an excuse for accusing me of the usual perfidies. Even with the correction that Garner's family won a civil suit for his death because of police negligence, Nothing in those examples I gave justifies BLM, and nothing I said deserved the stuff that was thrown at me. None of those cases I listed, including Garner, amount to a sufficient justification for BLM, and it makes BLM look like a defense of criminal behavior. The violence that does occur adds to that impression.

But of course we have to get into a thing about the meaning of "homicide." Sorry, I guess I equate the word with intentional murder, sorry I'm not up on the technical meaning. So that's my fault in it, which doesn't excuse the kinds of stuff that got thrown at me IMO.

So, it's sad if a black man gets killed for threatening a cop who is trying to deal with a petty crime, but what is the solution? Disarm the cop so the petty criminal can kill HIM? What IS the solution? It's hard for me to sympathize with a major and sometimes violent protest over such incidents. What IS the solution?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 7:40 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 8:38 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 206 of 275 (801036)
03-02-2017 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Modulous
03-02-2017 7:40 PM


Re: the big picture
I am aware that sometimes a cop is way out of line and does commit murder. We all got to witness that in one case someone happened to catch on video, and the cop was rightly prosecuted. So cameras are a good idea.

And there was that sad case of the kid with the toy gun. Cops may overreact from fear you know, which could explain the disparity in that video you posted between their treatment of the white guy with the gun and the black guy with the gun (I haven't watched it, do you think it's necessary?). How are you going to change such a mental set?

And what if there is a trend of blacks tending to react threateningly to police intervention, is that taken into account in the disproportionate statistics? How about the black community take some responsibility and deal with their own attitudes?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 7:40 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 9:24 PM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 207 of 275 (801037)
03-02-2017 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
03-02-2017 8:16 PM


Re: the big picture
That's a very nice overview and I get your point.

Thank you.

None of those cases I listed, including Garner, amount to a sufficient justification for BLM, and it makes BLM look like a defense of criminal behavior.

I imagine this is largely down to how different sources have spun the narrative. A singular incident here is used by some people to prove cops are bad, a singular incident there is used by some others to prove BLM are bad. How about just look at the big picture, decide if there is a problem, why it exists, and how can we address those root causes? Even if you disagree with the means some are using in their attempts to raise awareness, you can agree with the central cause they are attempting to draw attention to.

So, it's sad if a black man gets killed for threatening a cop who is trying to deal with a petty crime, but what is the solution? Disarm the cop so the petty criminal can kill HIM? What IS the solution?

I can't provide a singular solution to all problems I'm afraid. However, the key here is that it isn't just about people who get shot for threatening a cop. It's the people that get shot who don't threaten a cop that are the truly sad cases. Yes, some folk also threaten cops, but would they have been a threat if it weren't the twentieth time they had been stopped while minding their business? Sometimes anger can be interpreted as 'threatening' by cops. Either way the only solution I can think of (and others have also proposed: I'm not alone) to mitigate these cases is for police culture and training to be changed so that pulling a gun is not a first thing they do - as was seen in the video of the black man obeying the law and exercising his constitutional rights who had a gun pointed at him and his pregnant unarmed wife. When threatened with a gun, regardless of who holds it - adrenaline shoots up and this can sometimes make even decent and non-criminal people do things which can worry a cop enough to raise their adrenaline and cause them to discharge a weapon when it never needed to happen. The gun handling mantra of 'never point a weapon at something you don't intend to destroy' springs to mind. The cop in the video seems to break that mantra and used it merely as a threat and a defence, a way to make his job easier and for him to personally feel safer though he may have been making the situation more dangerous.

If the police dealt with people with the presumption of innocence, maybe more police would die, maybe. But then maybe less people would die over all - which has got to be a win because surely that would include perfectly innocent people as well as petty criminals who don't deserve death just because they are intransigient.

De-escalation training, an change from the treating of black suspects as more dangerous than white ones will feed back into the 'black population' so as to increase their trust of law enforcement and lower tensions and fear during police stops.

Obviously, the UK manages to get away with it, but the chances of lowering gun ownership to those that have a legitimate reason for ownership and banning things such as rifles and handguns almost entirely in the USA is basically zero. So all you can hope for is to mitigate the damage that will be done.

It's hard for me to sympathize with a major and sometimes violent protest over such incidents.

How about you sympathize with a major movement, and their peaceful adherents who are protesting that black people are put into these standoffs more regularly? That protest unarmed black folk who pose no threat are still getting shot more regularly than their white counterparts? While also condemning those that escalate their anger into violence? You don't have to condemn the whole movement because of some incidents that are magnified by media reports.

You manage to 'disown' violent 'Christians' as not really Christian. Why not discount violent BLM protesters as illegitimate protesters? Why not see the problems they are trying to draw attention to and join their indignation. It won't make you complicit in the actions of all the people that feel likewise. Reject 'guilt by association' entirely.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:54 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:08 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 208 of 275 (801038)
03-02-2017 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Modulous
03-02-2017 8:38 PM


Re: the big picture
Just how peaceful IS BLM, since you want me to see it that way? When I hear about cops being killed because of BLM it's hard to think of it as peaceful. If it is peaceful overall I would be happy to know it and far more sympathetic to it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 8:38 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member
Posts: 813
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 209 of 275 (801039)
03-02-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
03-02-2017 8:54 PM


Re: the big picture
Just how peaceful IS BLM, since you want me to see it that way? When I hear about cops being killed because of BLM it's hard to think of it as peaceful.

Lol. Cops aren't being killed because of the Black Lives Matter movement. You're not sympathetic to Black Lives Matter because you don't see racial injustice as much of a problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:10 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 210 of 275 (801041)
03-02-2017 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Modulous
03-02-2017 8:38 PM


Re: the big picture
Tell you what. If BLM protestors, or the black community in general, loudly denounced the violence that associates itself with them, even the obstruction of streets that sometimes occurs and causes problems for others, I'd be far more open to your argument. Instead what I see and hear -- and I admit I probably miss a lot of news -- what I see and hear is incendiary talk, an idiot black woman who refuses to be sympathetic with the whites who have been attacked by blacks in various protests in recent weeks, not by BLM but Trump protesters, who even attack anti-Trumpers if they are white.; There seems to be a black racism that's been developing lately along with anti-police attitudes. I HAVE heard a couple of blacks denounce the violence in some You Tube videos, but there should be a lot more of that if they want to get their complaint taken seriously by more of the public.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 8:38 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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