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Author Topic:   The Disgusting Berkeley Riots
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 31 of 275 (798609)
02-03-2017 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
02-03-2017 3:18 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
How is Yiannopolous spreading "propaganda?" He's not. He makes some rather crude jokes about feminism that I don't get but I'd be inclined just to ignore someone who talks like that. It's not "propaganda," and it's not "hate speech." Nobody is threatened by such remarks. How can you compare such trivia with calling Jews the cause of all Germany's woes and calling them "vermin" and the like?

It's the rioters who were in fact attacking women in reality. The people who go to Trump events and I guess also Yiannopolous are completely nonviolent; their opponents are the fascists, that's just a fact. Wearing a Trump shirt is the only reason a young woman was sprayed in the face and physically yanked around. That's fascism. What else can you call it? If most of the crowd really objects to treating people that way why didn't anyone come to her rescue?

"Protesting hate speech?"
In any case protesting would be fine if people want to bother, I'd ignore them too myself because it's silly, nothing he says is any kind of threat to anybody. But to attack people physically for ANY reason is indefensible. That's not a protest, that's a riot and it is against the law and the whole thing should have been dispersed and arrests made.

It's "alt-right" speech, whatever that is in reality, that's under attack. I don't see any other speech being threatened in the slightest. Political Correctness is THE main attack on free speech, and it has been oppressing us for decades. Yiannopolous seems to be trying to protest that sort of suppression of speech. I don't think his jokes succeed at that, or do anything but show he's trying to be iconoclastic and insist on the freedom to say whatever he wants. Why is it OK to suppress what you call "hate speech?" The only speech that should be suppressed is speech that promotes violence. THAT's against the law. (abe: or I might include namecalling of a class of people -- vermin etc. ) Milo Y isn't saying anything like that, but Madonna did, Leftists that are cdalling for assassinating Trump do. That doesn't bother you though? You're far more bothered about a guy who makes bad jokes about feminists.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 3:18 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 7:01 PM Faith has responded
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2017 7:32 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9333
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 32 of 275 (798610)
02-03-2017 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
02-03-2017 6:47 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
How is Yiannopolous spreading "propaganda?" He's not.

In fact, I've quoted him doing just that.

. He makes some rather crude jokes about feminism that I don't get but I'd be inclined just to ignore someone who talks like that.

Ignore the offensive stuff, eh? That's pretty convenient, isn't it?

The people who go to Trump events and I guess also Yiannopolous are completely nonviolent

Except that we've posted evidence here that people who go to Trump events do sometimes assault other folks. What is to be gained from this lie?

But to attack people physically for ANY reason is indefensible.

I did not defend any such thing and nor did anyone else in this thread. Why lie about that?

My point here is that you have eroded the term fascism to the point where it covers calling a xenophobe a xenophobe. At that point, the term "fascist" is not much of an insult.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 6:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 7:03 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 33 of 275 (798611)
02-03-2017 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by NoNukes
02-03-2017 7:01 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
Here's a preliminary attempt to reconcile a few issues.

I have to acknowledge that I also don't like the jokes Yiannopolous made. I don't like talking that way about any class of people. But I strenuously object to the Leftist reaction of just suppressing it as "hate speech,: especially knowing that a perfectly reasonable well-though-out argument against feminiost ideology would be treated exactly the same way. PC is a verbal punch in the nose, it represents the abysmally low level of political discourse the nation has sunk to. Leftist slurs and epithets show some sort of mental deterioration that is now issing iin violence because true dialogue has been so pathetically reduced.

Yiannopolous' jokes are really no better than PC. They are also little more than slurs and epithets on the same mentally deranged level.

How are such things to be dealt with in a healthy democratic society? Not by PC, not by slurs and epithets, not by lies and manipulation, not by accusations of "hate speech" and violent fascistic attempts to shut him up. ((I'm going to keep calling it "fascistic" because it far better characterizes current Leftist tactics than conservatives, which they accuse of it)..

Careful thoughtful analytic discussion is the civilized way. Take apart Yiannopolous' rhetoric seriously and carefully. A serious critique of feminist ideology is quite possible; reducing it to slurs and epithets accomplishes nothing. He sounds as demented as Leftist "humor" sounds to me. To me the humor thread at EvC is demented, mentally deranged lies and slurs and misrepresentations.

There may not be a cure because so many think on that level these days. I've made heroic efforts to show the danger of Islam here. All I get back is basically Leftist accusations, slurs and epithets, PC. ad hominens, personal attacks I can see on this thread another bit of evidence that the real danger in the world right now is the violence in the place of dialogue and the utter erosion of respect for a political opponent. But Yiannopolous also represents a similar deterioration of discourse on the other side. All that's left to us if this keeps escalating is throwing rocks at each other.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 7:01 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 8:28 PM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7388
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 34 of 275 (798613)
02-03-2017 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
02-03-2017 6:47 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
Wearing a Trump shirt is the only reason a young woman was sprayed in the face and physically yanked around. That's fascism. What else can you call it?

Dreadful behaviour. Just because fascists engaged in dreadful behaviour it doesn't mean people exhibiting dreadful behaviour are fascists.

Fascism is a political perspective that vehemently opposes Marxism and liberals, promotes radical nationalism under the guise of patriotism. It promotes the military and 'masculine' traits while demonizing minorities such as gays, foreigners and Jewish people. It utilizes the politics of declining moral standards, victimhood of the majority by the minorities. They espouse and celebrate authority, and assert their leaders should have broad or even absolute power in 'cleansing' society of undesirables - the aforementioned minorities. They vary between asserting they are trans-spectrum (neither left nor right, an 'alt' perspective you might say) and right wing.

Although they rose to power in the 20s through 30s on the back of violence, the violence wasn't the fascism - it was a tactic of fascism that other, opposing groups also used.

If most of the crowd really objects to treating people that way why didn't anyone come to her rescue?

From what I can tell the the interview took place outside of the crowd (as is typical), lasted a few seconds (meaning most people were unlikely to notice), and she was assisted by those around her.

That's not a protest, that's a riot and it is against the law and the whole thing should have been dispersed and arrests made.

Dispersal orders were made and so were arrests.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 6:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 10:46 AM Modulous has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9333
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 35 of 275 (798617)
02-03-2017 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
02-03-2017 7:03 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
have to acknowledge that I also don't like the jokes Yiannopolous made. I don't like talking that way about any class of people. But I strenuously object to the Leftist reaction of just suppressing it as "hate speech,

Calling it "hate speech", particularly when the label is accurate, is just more speech.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 10:40 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 36 of 275 (798652)
02-04-2017 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
02-03-2017 8:28 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
Calling it "hate speech", particularly when the label is accurate, is just more speech.

No it's politically motivated speech intended to intimidate and suppress, as is all Political Correctness. Thought police. Shut people up. Now riot and burn things down and beat up Trump supporters because of it, even when there isn't a shred of evidence that the person even remotely has such an attitude. Beat them up with impunity too. No arrests in the Berkeley riots, no punishment, police stood around and watched this criminal activity. "Hate speech" justifies all this evil and the Left applauds.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 8:28 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2017 2:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 37 of 275 (798654)
02-04-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Modulous
02-03-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
"Dreadful behavior" glosses over the fact that the behavior is politically motivated, the aim being to suppress opposing viewpoints. The conservative point of view keeps getting called fascist although there hasn't been one case of such politically motivated violence on the Trump side, no desire to shut anyone up and the rallying cry is for freedom.

The effort is made to pin the idea on people who reacted against the fascistic Leftist disruption of Trump rallies. Nope, defending yourself and kicking out Leftist fascists is not fascism. I can call the stuff totalitarian, or despotic instead, but the point here is that "fascism" is wrongly used to brand conservatives when it is the Left that is acting like fascists. They deserve the term.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2017 7:32 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2017 11:15 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7388
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 38 of 275 (798656)
02-04-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
02-04-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
"Dreadful behavior" glosses over the fact that the behavior is politically motivated, the aim being to suppress opposing viewpoints.

That still doesn't make it fascism.

The conservative point of view keeps getting called fascist although there hasn't been one case of such politically motivated violence on the Trump side.

Not so much the conservative point of view but the far-right American point of view? Let's see shall we?

"vehemently opposes Marxism and liberals"

Check.

"promotes radical nationalism under the guise of patriotism"

I suppose you could dispute this, but the comparison is at least somewhat apt 'America first', for example.

"promotes the military and 'masculine' traits while demonizing minorities such as gays, foreigners and Jewish people."

Well the American far-right sometimes goes after Jewish people, but they are more inclined towards Muslims who are often, but not exclusively semitic or black - and it's the immigrants - or foreigners they dislike. Gays is obviously true. They are all about 'the troops', and regularly complain about soft, 'snowflakes' of the left

"utilizes the politics of declining moral standards, victimhood of the majority by the minorities."

Christians are being persecuted, America is no longer great, multiculturalism and the gay agenda is undermining America's moral fabric, Islam is the real enemy etc etc

"They espouse and celebrate authority, and assert their leaders should have broad or even absolute power in 'cleansing' society of undesirables"

"Under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, Congressís powers in this area are plenary, and the presidentís powers are as broad as the Congress chooses to give him. "

" They vary between asserting they are trans-spectrum (neither left nor right, an 'alt' perspective you might say) and right wing."

Check. It seems there are many points of comparison that make sense, even if 'fascism' may be hyperbole.

there hasn't been one case of such politically motivated violence on the Trump side.

My point, that you ignored, is that politically motivated violence is not fascism and fascism is not politically motivated violence.

, but the point here is that "fascism" is wrongly used to brand conservatives when it is the Left that is acting like fascists.

They are also acting like Stalinists, and Irish Republicans, and Jewish Zionists such as Irgun. The American right's policies are closer aligned to fascism that the American left's. The tactics used by any given group may include violence but this is irrelevant to fascism which can exist without overt violence.

and the rallying cry is for freedom.

That was Hitler's rallying cry too, what's your point?

Hitler writes:

Over fourteen years have passed since that unhappy day when the German people, blinded by promises made by those at home and abroad, forgot the highest values of our past, of the Reich, of its honor and its freedom , and thereby lost everything. Since those days of treason, the Almighty has withdrawn his blessing from our nation. Discord and hatred have moved in. Filled with the deepest distress, millions of the best German men and women from all walks of life see the unity of the nation disintegrating in a welter of egoistical political opinions, economic interests, and ideological conflicts.

As so often in our history, Germany, since the day the revolution broke out, presents a picture of heartbreaking disunity. We did not receive the equality and fraternity which was promised us; instead we lost our freedom.

Hitler writes:

We have a burning conviction that the German people in 1914 went into the great battle without any thought of personal guilt and weighed down only by the burden of having to defend the Reich from attack, to defend the freedom and material existence of the German people.

Hitler writes:

The National Government will therefore regard it as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our state. Standing above estates and classes, it will bring back to our people the consciousness of its racial and political unity and the obligations arising therefrom. It wishes to base the education of German youth on respect for our great past and pride in our old traditions. It will therefore declare merciless war on spiritual, political and cultural nihilism.

That was from one speech.

Here are some others

Hitler writes:

If freedom is short of weapons, we must compensate with willpower.

Hitler writes:

In vowing ourselves to one another, we are entitled to stand before the Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing. No people can do more than that everybody who can fight, fights, and that everybody who can work, works, and that they all sacrifice in common, filled with but one thought: to safeguard freedom and national honor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 10:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5541
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 39 of 275 (798659)
02-04-2017 11:27 AM


THIS HITLER NONSENSE Ö[blog]

https://regiehammblog.wordpress.com/.../this-hitler-nonsense


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2017 11:36 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7388
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 40 of 275 (798660)
02-04-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
02-04-2017 11:27 AM


THIS HITLER NONSENSE Ö[blog]

Exactly. Glad to see you are dropping the brownshirts nonsense. We just need to get Faith on board and that unfortunate and 'eye-rolling' hyperbole can be put to bed once and for all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 02-04-2017 11:27 AM Coyote has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 41 of 275 (798665)
02-04-2017 12:37 PM



Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 12:49 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 42 of 275 (798666)
02-04-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2017 12:37 PM


I guess you're insinuating something in the effort to justify violence?

Yiannopolous is right to demand an apology. And if he doesn't get it that will be just one more confirmation that the Left is working to bring the nation under totalitarianism based on lying slander and enforced by terrorism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2017 12:37 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Theodoric, posted 02-04-2017 1:17 PM Faith has responded
 Message 49 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2017 4:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5702
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 43 of 275 (798668)
02-04-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
02-04-2017 12:49 PM


No. He is pointing out the craven hypocrisy. Thought even you could see that.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 12:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 1:22 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 44 of 275 (798669)
02-04-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Theodoric
02-04-2017 1:17 PM


Hypocrisy? One thing I've learned by now is that when the Left slings that term it's a total lie. Just another case in point here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Theodoric, posted 02-04-2017 1:17 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 02-04-2017 1:45 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5702
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 45 of 275 (798671)
02-04-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
02-04-2017 1:22 PM


A couple questions.
Can you read?
Do you understand what the word hypocrisy means?

Complaining about people with hurt feelings and then demanding an apology for your hurt feelings is hypocritical. I don't care how you feel about this idiot, but you cannot dispute facts. His demand for an apology is hypocritical.

His feelings are more important than the feelings of others in his eyes. That is hypocritical. There is no discussion to be had. It is.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 1:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Coyote, posted 02-04-2017 2:34 PM Theodoric has responded
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 5:38 PM Theodoric has responded

    
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