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Author Topic:   The Disgusting Berkeley Riots
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 275 (798716)
02-05-2017 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
02-04-2017 6:55 PM


You draw the line quite arbitrarily, Faith. The only distinction is that Milo applies his offense to an entire group of people. People rightly respond back to Milo as an individual. How else could it be, Faith?
And of course the truth is a perfectly good defense against slander.

Not at all arbitrary. Offense may be definable as an opinion perhaps; but slander is a lie about the person. Aren't all his offensive comments just opinion?

I already said I didn't like his comments; I don't even know what they are supposed to mean. I see no joke in them. But there is no doubt that slander is something else completely in being an outright lie about a person, which is probably why you can sue for slander but as far as I know not for offense.

Nothing arbitrary about it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2017 6:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 02-05-2017 4:09 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 62 of 275 (798728)
02-05-2017 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
02-05-2017 1:34 AM


Offense may be definable as an opinion perhaps; but slander is a lie about the person

What you call slander is equally definable as opinion and the offense is equally well seen as a lie.

You are doing your best to distinguish between the two, but what you are demonstrating is your ability to give one person a pass even after acknowledging the unsuitability of what he says. What you have not done in several attempts is meaningfully separate offense from offense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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 Message 61 by Faith, posted 02-05-2017 1:34 AM Faith has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 63 of 275 (798741)
02-05-2017 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
02-03-2017 1:58 PM


Re: anarchists and agent provocateurs
Here is some more information on the anarchists from USA today

quote:
What is a Black Bloc? The tactic that unleashed chaos in Berkeley

A University of California Berkeley spokesman says a small group turned protests violent, as Breitbart editor Milo Yiannopoulos came to speak. The spokesman added that it's not a proud day for the Berkeley campus. (Feb. 2) AP

Swarms of people dressed in black invaded what was supposed to be a peaceful demonstration against right-wing commentator Milo Yiannopoulous on Wednesday evening.

The group tossed smoke bombs, set fires and started fights on the University of California - Berkeley campus where Yiannopoulous was slated to speak. He never would.

The protest's organizers, the Berkeley Against Trump coalition, said the peaceful acts of the 1,500 demonstrators were marred by 50 to 75 anti-fascist Black Bloc protestors.

Outside of Berkeley, media outlets have linked Black Blocs to a number of modern protests, most recently in efforts opposing President Donald Trump. The Nation credits a Black Bloc protestor with punching alt-right leader Richard Spencer in the face on Trump's inauguration day. The Washington Post said Black Blocs were involved with violent protests in Washington, D.C. on inauguration day and in Portland following Trump's election win.

On Wednesday, Twitter users used the term in describing the protesters at Berkeley

Black Bloc, is a tactic, not a group. Those who practice it often wear black and cover their face with masks. They usually leave a wake of destruction.

In a 2015 article published in Police Magazine, author Kory Flowers said anarchists use protests such as the ones in Ferguson, Missouri, after the shooting death of Michael Brown, to launch their signature "chaos- and havoc-laden tactics." The article described Black Bloc strategy as "throngs of criminal anarchists all dress in black clothing in an effort to appear as a unified assemblage, giving the appearance of solidarity for the particular cause at hand."

Black Bloc gained attention in the United States in 1999 after violent protests at a meeting of the World Trade Organization in Seattle, according to a 2001 history of the tactic on the anarchist news website, A-Infos. The reason for the dress, wrote the history's author Daniel Dylan Young, was to "fend off police attacks, without being singled out as individuals for arrest and harassment later on."

Hundreds of people were arrested in the Seattle riots, which involved anarchists vandalizing businesses.

Young said Black Blocs spread in Europe in the 1980s as a "popular resistance to the police state and the New World Order." About 3,000 people engaged in a Black Bloc protest in 1987, according to A-Infos, when President Ronald Reagan visited Berlin.

Erica West, a Berkeley grad student and a member of the Berkeley Against Trump coalition, stressed the group doesn't support the violence.

"We didn't anticipate the violence," she said, adding she was disappointed that "the media attention has been skewed so heavily toward that."


You can also find information about Black Bloc on wikipedia

Anarchists oppose both right and left parties and want to destroy all government. In this they are closer to libertarians than progressives. See Anarchism on wikipedia

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 1:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 02-05-2017 10:35 AM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 275 (798749)
02-05-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
02-05-2017 4:09 AM


No, it is you having the trouble separating them, because it suits your political viewpoint not to; I have no trouble with it myself.
This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 275 (798750)
02-05-2017 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by RAZD
02-05-2017 8:29 AM


Re: anarchists and agent provocateurs
Here is some more information on the anarchists from USA today ...

I hope that's true, because I'd rather not think the Left has turned violent and decided to destroy the nation because of Trump.

But there are questions. It was an older man not wearing black who pepper-sprayed the young woman wearing the Trump hat (I wrongly said shirt earlier). Interestingly this happened right after she told an interviewer that she's sure the protestors are mostly nonviolent. This on video.

At one of the first "protests" after the election it was young black thugs who dragged a white guy out of his car and beat him, and he wasn't even a Trump supporter. It was also young blacks who bound and tortured the mentally handicapped white guy telling him to denounce Trump and white people. And I doubt all those people calling for the assassination of Trump are Black Bloc.

And there is still the question why these guys could get away with it. There should have been massive police action and arrests. So they're hiding their identity in black, you can still go after the guys in black when you see them hit or stomp somebody or start a fire etc, why didn't that happen?

I've been watching Infowars off and on recently (you can hold the ad hominems) and they have coverage of stuff you won't see elsewhere, including people who were at these events describing such things as that women were being especially targeted, and that pleas to the cops, at the inauguration protests anyway, got the answer that they were told by the President (Obama) not to intervene, even when a bloodied victim appealed for help. The "mainstream" media seems to shy away from such reports.

Another report was that a large number of people were kept from getting into the inauguration by a crowd of Black Lives Matter terrorists among others. Suggests that for whatever reason the police are not doing their jobs.

But I'm sure you've turned up one important element in the problem at least.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 8:29 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2017 11:28 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 69 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 2:46 PM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 66 of 275 (798756)
02-05-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
02-05-2017 10:35 AM


Re: anarchists and agent provocateurs
It was an older man not wearing black who pepper-sprayed the young woman wearing the Trump hat

The videos I've seen (2 of them) show a man in a black jacket wearing black gloves. What videos have you seen? Also she wasn't wearing a Trump hat. It was a red hat - presumably chosen for its association with both Trump and Milo - but it actually said 'Make Bitcoin Great Again'.


There should have been massive police action and arrests. So they're hiding their identity in black, you can still go after the guys in black when you see them hit or stomp somebody or start a fire etc, why didn't that happen?

I believe the University police say making arrests in the middle of a riot would have put themselves and innocents in danger; that they were more focussed on getting people to safety.

I've been watching Infowars off and on recently (you can hold the ad hominems) and they have coverage of stuff you won't see elsewhere, including people who were at these events describing such things as that women were being especially targeted, and that pleas to the cops, at the inauguration protests anyway, got the answer that they were told by the President (Obama) not to intervene, even when a bloodied victim appealed for help. The "mainstream" media seems to shy away from such reports.

One assumes they were unable to find any verification for the reports, such as a police officer saying this.

Incidentally there were over 200 arrests made in Washington during the inauguration protests.

Nine were arrested in New York.

Six in Chicago.

Six in Portland.

Five in Dallas.

3 arrests at UC Berkeley (I believe this number excludes the man who shot another man described below).

1 Trump and Milo supporter shot a peaceful protester at Berkeley, turned himself in and was not charged. The victim, shot in the stomach and had 'life-threatening injuries' was described as trying to de-escalate a potentially violent situation has called for no criminal charges and insists he wants a 'dialogue' and “restorative justice” to occur instead.

I don't think any charges were placed against the "Make America Great Again" red hat wearing man who pepper sprayed a 15 year old girl. The girl is being charged after throwing a punch against someone else who said they weren't interesting in filing charges.

Allen Scarsella, who was masked up, shot 5 black lives matter protesters at a protest in 2015, was recently found guilty.

Another report was that a large number of people were kept from getting into the inauguration by a crowd of Black Lives Matter terrorists among others

Terrorists? Seems a little extreme. Since when is locking arms forming a barrier a terrorist action? It's disruptive, but terrorists? Come come, let's keep that word for people that deserve it.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 67 of 275 (798766)
02-05-2017 12:36 PM


It's good to know I only need wear black to hide my identity.

JB


Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 68 of 275 (798768)
02-05-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ThinAirDesigns
02-05-2017 12:36 PM


It's good to know I only need wear black to hide my identity.

The uniform wearing of black is seen as a tactic to intimidate, give the impression of an organised movement and to inhibit identification on camera by not displaying characteristic clothing - logos, certain patterns etc. The wearing of gloves, masks and scarves over the faces is how to hide your identity. Read RAZD's Message 63 more carefully:

quote:
Those who practice it often wear black and cover their face with masks. ...throngs of criminal anarchists all dress in black clothing in an effort to appear as a unified assemblage, giving the appearance of solidarity for the particular cause at hand...The reason for the dress, wrote the history's author Daniel Dylan Young, was to "fend off police attacks, without being singled out as individuals for arrest and harassment later on

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 69 of 275 (798797)
02-05-2017 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
02-05-2017 10:35 AM


Re: anarchists and agent provocateurs
I hope that's true, because I'd rather not think the Left has turned violent and decided to destroy the nation because of Trump.

(1) it's not the left. Leftist organizations reject them. Nor are they Rightist. They do have some things in common with libertarians and Tea party extremists that want to tear down government, and they do have some things in common with Bannon who wants to destroy government from the inside.

(2) they've been around since the '80's, long before Trump.

But there are questions. It was an older man not wearing black who pepper-sprayed the young woman wearing the Trump hat (I wrongly said shirt earlier). Interestingly this happened right after she told an interviewer that she's sure the protestors are mostly nonviolent. This on video.

So that could be another agitator trying to cause violence, such as an agent provocateur looking to maximize impact by getting it on TV.

And there is still the question why these guys could get away with it. There should have been massive police action and arrests. So they're hiding their identity in black, you can still go after the guys in black when you see them hit or stomp somebody or start a fire etc, why didn't that happen?

Some were arrested. Not many people will confront violent people.

I've been watching Infowars ...

An excellent site to stay away from imho. Have you ever tried Democracy Now? They seem to me to be one of the last bastions of true journalism.

... (you can hold the ad hominems) and they have coverage of stuff you won't see elsewhere, including people who were at these events describing such things as that women were being especially targeted, and that pleas to the cops, at the inauguration protests anyway, got the answer that they were told by the President (Obama) not to intervene, even when a bloodied victim appealed for help. The "mainstream" media seems to shy away from such reports.

Have they shown how "water protector" protestors at the #NoDAPL protest were treated (maced, dogs, smokebombs, water canons in subzero temperatures, etc etc etc)? If not then they only show one narrative.

Another report was that a large number of people were kept from getting into the inauguration by a crowd of Black Lives Matter terrorists among others. Suggests that for whatever reason the police are not doing their jobs.

#BlackLivesMatter protestors are not terrorists, blocking roads with peaceful protests is not terrorism but fairly standard protest behavior.

But I'm sure you've turned up one important element in the problem at least.

Good, because it is only when the marginalized right can work with the marginalize left and middle that we will begin to heal this country. Recognize that the real problems are not between left and right so much as between oppressive wealth and oppressed poor. We can't fight the thumb pushing us down if we constantly fight each other.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 02-05-2017 10:35 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 02-05-2017 5:52 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25308
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 275 (798822)
02-05-2017 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by RAZD
02-05-2017 2:46 PM


Re: anarchists and agent provocateurs
Funny. In spite of that claim that they are against government, I suspect there wouldn't have been any protests if Hillary had won.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 2:46 PM RAZD has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 71 of 275 (798901)
02-06-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
02-05-2017 5:52 PM


Re: anarchists and agent provocateurs
Funny. In spite of that claim that they are against government, I suspect there wouldn't have been any protests if Hillary had won.

Several protests were planned, especially related to wall street regulation, and war proliferation, and oil fracking, and pipelines, and black lives matter, and $15/hr minimum wage, and free tuition ... Bernie planned to hold rallies to promote these issues and hold Hillary\DNA to their purported commitment to the platform.

... because Hillary is republican-lite. She compares herself to Eisenhower (Nixon would be closer). She would maintain the status quo corporatist oligarchy.

Protest is a valuable tool in a functional democracy, because it demonstrates disagreement between government and the people. Freedom of speech. When we give up the right to protest the country is in grave danger.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(4)
Message 72 of 275 (798905)
02-06-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
02-02-2017 8:59 PM


Coyote writes:

The goal is to shut down any and all opposition through street violence.

OMG!!! Just look at those violent protesters!!!!!

If you can't see the street violence being a prime weapon on the part of the progs, you need better glasses.

The prime weapon is peaceful protest. Always has been.


This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 73 of 275 (798909)
02-06-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
02-03-2017 9:34 AM


Re: Riots are bad (but it depends on who's rioting).
Faith writes:

Perhaps you could venture a thought about how so many of the anti-Trump "protests" have in fact become violent?

You first have to demonstrate how many anti-Trump protestors have committed violence.

Such a strange opinion suggests that "some" people really don't deserve free speech? Such as people who disagree with the darling opinions of the Left?

Conservatives have a strange knack for confusing freedom of speech with freedom from criticism. When someone on the right is criticized they act as if their freedom of speech has been violated. This isn't the case.

Violent attacks intended to silence a political opinion are a "low level" action that shouldn't be compared to the Nazis, cuz why? Again it's a rather apt comparison it seems to me. Perhaps you have another word for it? How about Stalinism? Maoism?

What we are seeing is conservatives focusing on rare violent events as a means of silencing a largely peaceful protest.


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 Message 17 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 9:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 74 of 275 (798924)
02-06-2017 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taq
02-06-2017 12:04 PM


Don't confuse progressives with anarchists
If you can't see the street violence being a prime weapon on the part of the progs, you need better glasses.

The prime weapon is peaceful protest. Always has been.

The prime weapon of progressives is peaceful protest because that is the way we get the good results. Civil rights, antiwar, lesbian gay etc. This is based on MLK, who based it on Gandhi who based it on Thoreau (civil disobedience). Thoreau is so revered in India that when Walden Pond was going to be developed into an amusement park they raised funds to buy the land and turn it into a state park. (Damn foreigners interfering with American business rights to destroy everything).

Violent action is one of the weapons of Anarchists

quote:
Propaganda of the deed and illegalism
Main articles: Propaganda of the deed, Illegalism, and Expropriative anarchism
Italian-American anarchist Luigi Galleani. His followers, known as Galleanists, carried out a series of bombings and assassination attempts from 1914 to 1932 in what they saw as attacks on 'tyrants' and 'enemies of the people'

Some anarchists, such as Johann Most, advocated publicising violent acts of retaliation against counter-revolutionaries because "we preach not only action in and for itself, but also action as propaganda."[107] By the 1880s, people inside and outside the anarchist movement began to use the slogan, "propaganda of the deed" to refer to individual bombings, regicides, and tyrannicides. ...


It is also closer linked to Libertarian than progressive "weapons"

Libertarian education and freethought, See also: Anarchism and education and Freethought

Meanwhile the anarchist group involved in these protests -- the ones that spraypaint the red anarchist "A" symbol are members of Black Bloc

quote:
A black bloc is a tactic used by protestors, in which individuals wear black clothing, scarves, sunglasses, ski masks, motorcycle helmets with padding, or other face-concealing and face-protecting items.[1][2] The clothing is used to conceal marchers' identities and hinder criminal prosecution, by making it difficult to distinguish between participants. It is also used to protect their faces and eyes from items such as pepper-spray which law enforcement often uses. The tactic allows the group to appear as one large unified mass.[3] Black bloc participants are often associated with anarchism.

The tactic was developed in the 1980s in the European autonomist movement's protests against squatter evictions, nuclear power and restrictions on abortion, as well as other influences.[1] Black blocs gained broader media attention outside Europe during the 1999 Seattle WTO protests, when a black bloc damaged property of GAP, Starbucks, Old Navy, and other multinational retail locations in downtown Seattle.[1][4]


So you might have to be stupid, ignorant, insane or wicked ... or badly myopic ... to lump the violence of anarchists with the peaceful protesters ... just because main stream and right wing media tells you to.

and ignorance is not a crime, unless it is not a temporary condition.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 12:04 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 75 of 275 (798927)
02-06-2017 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
02-06-2017 3:00 PM


Re: Don't confuse progressives with anarchists
"Oh, the KKK said they supported some of Trump's ideas? Wow, that Trump guy is a terrible person.

Oh, a black bloc is supporting a progressive protest? Nah, not related, nothing to see here."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 02-06-2017 3:00 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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