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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Faith
Member
Posts: 30179
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 84 (833854)
05-27-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-27-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
Hi, Faith. Though I am not pro Trump, I do not see him as quite the antichrist that I used to see him as, and still, don't understand why the liberals are any more possessed than the conservatives. the Bible mentions that none are righteous. Politics is basically different philosophies and ideologies and I don't see Christianity as being strictly right wing nor socialist...though a case could be made for either in the Bible.

I don't want to defend conservatives as individuals or specimens of humanity, certainly not on the basis of "righteousness," and I hope to avoid like the plague anything having to do with Trump as a person because it's his policies that conservatives voted for, not his personality. (Just as an aside, Ann Coulter who wrote a book lauding Trump back in the beginning, recently said she knew when she wrote it that he was a "shallow, lazy ignoramus" but that she'd waited thirty years for someone to come along and say the things he said, and I think that sums up the conservative position on this. Policy, not personality.

And I do generally accept that conservative policies are superior to liberal policies for governing a nation, because I do believe that they allow for the creation of wealth which is what created America's great wealth, and in any case conservatives in general take this position and that's why Trump got elected. The feeling was that Obama had sold the nation down the river as it were, that if we kept on that path we'd end up on the level of the Third World, and in this light Trump's campaign proposals were the desperately needed antidote.

Some questions:
1) What do you personally see as Trumps greatest contributions towards protecting the United Staes from globalism?

I'm happy if anyone sees that globalism is a problem and WANTS to protect us from it. I'd like to keep the conversation on that level.

Is globalism inevitable eventually?(Revelation speaks of a one world government)

As you say scripture seems to suggest it is inevitable, but I don't want to get fatalistic about it, we should fight it with everything we've got and hope it won't happen for a few million years (my only context for approving of the idea of millions of years).

2) What doctrines and/or beliefs of the Left challenge Christianity?

Oh there are lots of things coming down that I could list but I don't want to take the thread in that direction. I hope we can get into the basics of how far Christian principles apply to government at all (and I changed the title of the thread to say that, by the way) as the Red Letter group clearly think they should.

3) Is it really true that America is a Christian Nation or are we more secular and (increasingly) all-inclusive? Pluralist, if you will.

We used to be Christian, we are getting far from it.

I bit off a lot to chew in these two topic proposals and I'm going to have to move carefully and slowly if I'm to survive it.


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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 14555
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


(5)
Message 17 of 84 (833855)
05-27-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
05-27-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Lets frame this topic
quote:

The feeling was that Obama had sold the nation down the river as it were, that if we kept on that path we'd end up on the level of the Third World, and in this light Trump's campaign proposals were the desperately needed antidote.

I think you have cause and effect the wrong way round. Most of the attacks on Obama were generated by opposition to the idea of a Democrat in the White House - anD in a number of cases opposition to having a Black President.

Trump’s campaign promises do not seem to make a lot of sense. The tax cuts are going to massively increase the deficit. The repeal of the Affordable Healthcare Act mainly makes sense as an attempt to deny Obama a lasting legacy (Do you remember all the promises of a “better” system ? And in the end it came down to Republicans wrangling over how much they were going to take away ?). The Wall is an expensive boondoggle which will probably never be completely built and no way is Mexico going to pay for it. The attempt to destroy the deal with Iran is likely to be ineffective or worse to encourage Iranian development of nuclear weapons (and we all agree that an Iran with nukes is not a good thing).


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ringo
Member
Posts: 15750
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 18 of 84 (833868)
05-27-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


Faith writes:

It's the policies of free enterprise that made America the richest nation on earth.


Jesse James was richer than his neighbours too. He was the ultimate free-enterpriser.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 84 (833870)
05-27-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
05-27-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Lets frame this topic
I don't want to defend conservatives as individuals or specimens of humanity, certainly not on the basis of "righteousness," and I hope to avoid like the plague anything having to do with Trump as a person because it's his policies that conservatives voted for, not his personality.

1) Sounds like you are trying to defend conservatives despite saying that you don't want to.
2) Why is Trump's non-Christian behavior not rightfully on topic.
3) You've already demonstrated that you cannot defend Trump's economic policies in a way that makes any sense. You are instead repeating what someone else told you. Tell me specifically how you think Trump's policies help any but the rich, and then maybe a meaningful discussion can ensue.

We used to be Christian, we are getting far from it.

If the irony here is not evident to you, I doubt anything I say can help.

I bit off a lot to chew in these two topic proposals and I'm going to have to move carefully and slowly if I'm to survive it.

My guess is that you cannot handle this topic. You are trying to defend the indefensible. But begging out of giving specifics is not the way to go.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3090
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 20 of 84 (833883)
05-27-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-27-2018 11:40 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
To put it more precise, trump lifts those sanctions because the Chinese 'loaned' a Chinese based construction company 500 million dollars to a Trump branded luxury resort in Indonesia could actually be built, which in turn puts 10's of millions of dollars of profit into the Trump owned franchise company

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Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 398
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 21 of 84 (833889)
05-27-2018 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by JonF
05-27-2018 12:48 PM


Re: Let's keep the topic general
The taxes on the rich were over 90% in the 1950s.

In fairness, the proliferation of loopholes meant that no one in their right mind actually paid those marginal rates. Your underlying point stands though. As more than a few people have pointed out, the U.S. was building schools and highways and going to the moon in the era when conservatives were bemoaning the growth of taxes and regulations.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(2)
Message 22 of 84 (833891)
05-27-2018 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Capt Stormfield
05-27-2018 6:23 PM


Re: Let's keep the topic general
As well as creating medicare and medicaid and making it possible for women to go out without wearing a hat and gloves and for black folk to drink at the fountain and eat at the counter and ride in the front of the bus and not have to step off the sidewalk to make way for white folk and ...

you know. All those things the liberal Nazis did to folk.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 398
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 23 of 84 (833893)
05-27-2018 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
05-27-2018 7:00 PM


Re: Let's keep the topic general
On a different forum I once had a creationist claiming that it shur wunnut the Christians that was pro slavery in the antebellum South, it were the Damn Atheists. You know, the Confederate atheists, precursors to today's liberal nazis.
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4609
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 24 of 84 (833903)
05-28-2018 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


Hi Faith

I would just say this. What I want to see in world leaders is character. I am what in Canada we call a red tory which means I'm more or less on the left hand side of the Conservative party. However saying that, hopefully with wisdom, I would vote character ahead of policy. In other words I would prefer a liberal of good character to a conservative whose character was questionable.

I felt sorry for Americans voting in the last election because IMHO you had to choose between 2 candidates of very questionable character.The US is a great country. Surely you guys can do better than those two.

Edited by GDR, : typos


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 4:08 AM Faith has responded

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Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 25 of 84 (833913)
05-28-2018 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
05-27-2018 7:01 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
jar writes:

It is irrelevant whether or not the nation is prosperous; what is relevant is whether or not the individuals living in the nation have food, clothing, shelter, safety, health care.

But wouldn't logic suggest that in order to provide all of those essentials, individuals would have to be somewhat prosperous in order to share? You cant expect a poor man to give his last two mites to feed another poor family.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:11 AM Phat has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 30179
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 26 of 84 (833914)
05-28-2018 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
05-28-2018 12:22 AM


Thanks GDR. Well, Ben Carson had character but he didn't know anything. And there was Trump saying what conservatives had wanted to hear from a politician for decades. I do think he doesn't deserve what the Left is throwing at him in any case.

However, the Red Letter people are wrong, they're really just liberals.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 27 of 84 (833915)
05-28-2018 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by NoNukes
05-27-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Lets frame this topic
Faith writes:

I don't want to defend conservatives as individuals or specimens of humanity, certainly not on the basis of "righteousness," and I hope to avoid like the plague anything having to do with Trump as a person because it's his policies that conservatives voted for, not his personality.


NoNukes writes:

1) Sounds like you are trying to defend conservatives despite saying that you don't want to.

She will argue that she is defending conservatism and not individual conservatives. Similar to attacking Catholicism and not individual Catholics. The focus is on the ideology in general and not on any personality of individuals.
NoNukes writes:

2) Why is Trump's non-Christian behavior not rightfully on topic.

She will argue that they elected him because of his ideology and not because of his own personality or belief quirks.
3) You've already demonstrated that you cannot defend Trump's economic policies in a way that makes any sense. You are instead repeating what someone else told you. Tell me specifically how you think Trump's policies help any but the rich, and then maybe a meaningful discussion can ensue.
The only way to keep everyone from being "dragged down to the level of the 3rd world" is to help some prosper. Its trickle down economics. This is what i don't like about conservativism. They expect me to have to work hard to keep out of trouble.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 30179
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 28 of 84 (833916)
05-28-2018 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
05-28-2018 10:01 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
Yes, Phat, America's poor have always been way better off than the poor elsewhere because the nation has been so prosperous. Silly to think otherwise.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 30179
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 84 (833917)
05-28-2018 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
05-28-2018 10:10 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
She will argue that she is defending conservatism and not individual conservatives. Similar to attacking Catholicism and not individual Catholics. The focus is on the ideology in general and not on any personality of individuals.

Yes, thanks, and I thought that was clear enough even for NN but I guess not.

She will argue that they elected him because of his ideology and not because of his own personality or belief quirks.

I've already argued it. Why doesn't he get it?


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 30 of 84 (833918)
05-28-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
05-28-2018 10:11 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
America's poor have always been way better off than the poor elsewhere because the nation has been so prosperous. Silly to think otherwise.

  • Are current conservative policies helping Americas poor to keep up with the rest of the worlds poor?
  • How is the ever-increasing deficit and national debt helping Americas people?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:11 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
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