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Author
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Topic: Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 20 of 196 (156975)
11-07-2004 2:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by kc8rdb
11-04-2004 12:06 PM
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Where is the conflict?
IMHO the issue is not really Creation vs Evolution, GOD vs Science. Instead it is between reliance on theories developed thousands of years ago or more recent theories, between theories based on evidence that was available thousands of years ago and those that consider what we have learned since then. The Classic Creationist wants to take the tales in Genesis literally. We can see this in other threads where they vigorously declare that there are no differences between the accounts in Genesis 1 & 2, even when anyone who reads those chapters can see the differences themselves. The difference, IMHO, is that those who wish to take the Genesis Creation story literally start with a belief that it is true, and so any problems seen are simply our own misunderstanding. They go through amazing mental gymnastics to show those mutually exclusive statements simply are not mutually exclusive. It is a willing suspension of belief. I would describe myself as a Creationist. I believe that GOD created the Universe and all that we can experience. I believe that the thing that changed the state of the primordial egg was GOD, that GOD was what lead to the Big Bang. If one day we should discover that Brane Theories are correct and that is what lead to the Big Bang, my reaction would be, "Oh, that's how GOD did it!" For me, there is no real conflict between the Bible and Evolution, between the Bible and Science. The purpose of the Bible is to provide guidelines for living a moral life. The two are mutually supportive and not exclusionary. Classic Creationists have a problem. Their faith, which is very important to them, is tied up and based on a thing, a work, an anthology. The threat from the Theory of Evolution is percieved. It is internal to their theology. Their theology is not based on the moral message from the Bible but rather the text itself. As I have said before, it is founded on the reality of the Map and not on the actual Territory.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by kc8rdb, posted 11-04-2004 12:06 PM | | kc8rdb has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 28 of 196 (157709)
11-09-2004 3:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by kc8rdb
11-09-2004 11:13 AM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
Well hang in there. Go where the evidence leads you and you'll find the journey exciting and most enjoyable.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 11:13 AM | | kc8rdb has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 31 of 196 (157757)
11-09-2004 7:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
11-09-2004 7:30 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
No, not at all.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 7:30 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 8:08 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 35 of 196 (157761)
11-09-2004 8:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
11-09-2004 8:08 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
Well, all the evidence says that what we see, whether it's planets, solar systems, galaxies, or life itself simply evolved. That does not mean that GOD simply walked away. It does mean that there was no need to diddle the system. It's working just fine. Random Mutations and Natural Selection work every time.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 8:08 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 8:36 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 39 of 196 (157770)
11-09-2004 8:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
11-09-2004 8:36 PM
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Re: Who's Diddling The System?
As if any of us were there to know exactly. Someone on this thread was just saying that creos think they know it all You people seem to be the ones who think thataway. And that has what to do with the thread?
So did he do anything thereafter to keep it going as he wanted it? If it ain't broke...
.......and precious little in the fossil record for verifying the billions of should be transitionals. And if I could show you that there are actually tens of tens of millions of fossils, that the fossil record is actually very extensive, there there are actually many, many transitionals would you change your mind or simply walk away?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 8:36 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 9:12 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 42 of 196 (157775)
11-09-2004 9:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
11-09-2004 8:52 PM
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So you place the writings of man ahead of the record from GOD?
According to the fundamentals of the Genesis record and according to other scriptural texts, God created the species, including humans and we procreated from the originals. First, Genesis is not really a record but simply a collection of stories, many authors, many editors, written and redacted over many millenia. It's an anthology of anthologies. But Buz, GOD left us a direct record, the Universe, to learn from. It tells a far different story than Genesis. Why don't you believe the record that GOD left for us?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 8:52 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 9:25 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 46 of 196 (157780)
11-09-2004 9:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
11-09-2004 9:12 PM
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Re: Did God Walk Away?
Oh, so it just happened to have come out randomly and natural selectively just how God would've wanted it to-- earth popping up exactly where it HAD to be, relative to where the sun and moon popped up in the same random manner? Well, that isn't exactly how it worked. What really happened is that life evolved to fit the environement as it happened, randomly, to come out. It is not the location of the earth or moon that happened to be in the right place, rather because the earth and the moon were where they are, life evolved as we have found it.
Billions, or even a few million from many species? Well, just about every critter is a transitional so they are all transitionals. We don't have billions yet but given time that's not unreasonable to expect that one day we'll have billions of examples.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 9:12 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 128 of 196 (160804)
11-17-2004 11:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
11-17-2004 11:16 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
If it is transitional, would you consider it's evolution to be complete? Nope.There isn't a complete critter. Everything is constantly evolving.
What on earth would you say is in the process of evolving today? everything.
Even the simplest organisms seem to be quite complicated when analyzed, fulfilling their particular function in their ecosystems to make up the ecosphere. First, complexity has nothing to do with evolution. And as conditions change, some critters will do well, others will become extinct. That's the filter.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:16 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 130 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:27 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 131 of 196 (160809)
11-17-2004 11:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by Buzsaw
11-17-2004 11:27 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
They don't. They change, evolve.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:27 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:33 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 133 of 196 (160814)
11-17-2004 11:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
11-17-2004 11:33 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
Modern crocodiles, aligators and camans.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:33 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:40 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 135 of 196 (160817)
11-17-2004 11:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
11-17-2004 11:40 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
1. What improvements are verified for croc? What the hell does improvement have to do with Evolution?
2. What fossil evidence do we have for verification that other reptiles have evolved from croc? Great idea for a thread but it has little to do with this one.
3. Why have some crocs allegedly evolved into other animals and the rest remained crocs? There is no purpose to evolution, it simply happens. Change goes on all the time. If the random change helps things survive to breed, then it gets passed on. So some changes helped earlier species evolve into other critters. Pointless, purposeless evolution. GOD's system.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:40 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:57 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 137 of 196 (160822)
11-18-2004 12:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 136 by Buzsaw
11-17-2004 11:57 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
nor the system that I read about in my Bible. that much we can agree on.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2004 11:57 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 142 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2004 8:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 145 of 196 (161272)
11-18-2004 8:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 142 by Buzsaw
11-18-2004 8:30 PM
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Re: Where is the conflict?
Buz, look around. The universe is wonderous, but it is also random and pointless. It's not a playtoy for some immature supernatural kiddie. It's a flower opening, the change of seasions, galaxies being born, and dying, life evolving. It is constant change, renewal. Frankly, that is far more wonderful than some childish play moving toy solders around in the sand.
That also this god of yours has resigned himself to live forever with whatever purposelessly and pointlessly pops up? Resigned himself? Why he's enjoying ever second of it.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 142 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2004 8:30 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 171 of 196 (161461)
11-19-2004 10:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
11-19-2004 12:21 AM
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Buz, let me try again.
First, if you will look at my posts I believe you'll find that I was trying to figure out what your position really is. I was asking questions. You claim that you are talking about observations yet what you actually write is quite different. Is this what you wrote?
1. What we observe in our daily lives is that complex things like computers, televisions, airplanes, etc is that in order to become complex to do what we want them to do, masterfully precisioned and designed by thousands of INTELLIGENTindividuals go into making them the complex machines which function to serve us as they do. 2. By the same token, scientists observe the brain, it is discovered that some 100 billion neurons, served by around a trillion service agents function with great precision to operate the nervous systems of each of billions of people. Each neuron interacts with at least 10 other neurons in the process. I believe the human mind is far more complex than anything man-made. No amount of co-operative human intelligence can make one from scratch. 3. The thread title is "Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists. It is the notion of some of us more ignorant Biblical fundamental creationists that no amount of time nor natural selection nor random mutation with out a smidget of intelligence would be able to produce such a precisely designed and super-highly complex wonder as the human brain, no matter how you cook up your math and rig up your theories. Do you mean to say that complexity can only come about with God's intervention? PRECISELY! If all the kings wise men, with all their combined trillions of neuronic brains working together can't make a brain, imo, mindless Mr. Natual Selection and his cohort, dead headed Ms Radom Mutation never did it. And don't forget also that the kings wise men have models to observe and work from/copy, where NS and RM, had nothing atol to begin to put it all together, not even anything whatsoever to motivate them to do it. If so, then then let's parse it together. Item one is a stement about machines. No one argues with that statement. But beginning in statement two, you move from observation to beliefs, from science to faith.
I believe the human mind is far more complex than anything man-made. No amount of co-operative human intelligence can make one from scratch. You are saying that your belief is that the mind is more complex than anything made and that regardless of evidence YOU do not believe something comperable could be made. So it seems to me that you are saying it is simply a matter of your beliefs. Then, in statement 3, you say:
It is the notion of some of us more ignorant Biblical fundamental creationists that no amount of time nor natural selection nor random mutation with out a smidget of intelligence would be able to produce such a precisely designed and super-highly complex wonder as the human brain, no matter how you cook up your math and rig up your theories. So in this statement you affirm that it is simply your belief and that it is based on your interpretation of the Bible. You also say that you will hold that belief regardless of the math or theories. There is no mention of evidence. Finally, in your summation you say:
PRECISELY! If all the kings wise men, with all their combined trillions of neuronic brains working together can't make a brain, imo, mindless Mr. Natual Selection and his cohort, dead headed Ms Radom Mutation never did it. And don't forget also that the kings wise men have models to observe and work from/copy, where NS and RM, had nothing atol to begin to put it all together, not even anything whatsoever to motivate them to do it. Again, you include "imo" which implies that it is your opinion. Is that a reasonable summation of what you have said? edited to add requisite spelling errors. This message has been edited by jar, 11-19-2004 10:25 AM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 11-19-2004 12:21 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 176 by Buzsaw, posted 11-19-2004 11:26 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 177 of 196 (161689)
11-19-2004 11:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 176 by Buzsaw
11-19-2004 11:26 PM
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Re: Buz, let me try again.
Buz, I quoted what you said exactly. Folk can read your posts and my responses and then make their own decisions.
Again you're obfuscating/spinning my argument by the way you masterfully rephrased my statement. I rephrased nothing, I quoted what YOU wrote.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by Buzsaw, posted 11-19-2004 11:26 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2004 12:22 AM | | jar has replied |
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