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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5586
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 361 of 671 (826729)
01-08-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
01-08-2018 4:14 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:

Ringo claims that your definition is not one that anybody uses, but I think what he means is that it is not one that everybody uses.

Nope, Ringo is just trying to define himself out of a problem.

All this nit-picking about 'may' and 'attribution' is just smoke, everybody knows what a miracle would look like if we saw one - even ringo. This is why he just refuses to discuss the hypothetical cases that would be declared an unmistakeable miracle.

He's being unscientific, refusing to follow the evidence wherever it leads as a matter of dogma. In this case semantics, the refuge of the scoundrel.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 01-08-2018 4:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 362 of 671 (826730)
01-08-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
01-08-2018 4:14 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:

Ringo claims that your definition is not one that anybody uses, but I think what he means is that it is not one that everybody uses.

All we need is a definition of "miracle" that we agree on. I'm open to suggestions for how best to define "miracle" for this discussion.

--Percy


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Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 10:24 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 363 of 671 (826752)
01-09-2018 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Percy
01-08-2018 5:28 PM


Re: Consensus
Why don't we do a poll?

When someone says to me, "......something, something was a miracle."

What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur.

It may not be the correct definition but that is what I have always thought was meant by the word miracle.

What is a alternative definition that is being used?


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 5:28 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 10:55 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded
 Message 367 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:06 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 364 of 671 (826753)
01-09-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Percy
01-08-2018 1:30 PM


Percy writes:

Obviously if attribution to one of those causes is only a possibility, then there must exist other possibilities, of which non-attribution is one.


Not obvious at all. I gave you an example: "I'll see you on the weekend - it may be Saturday or it may be Sunday." Not seeing you at all is not an option.

Percy writes:

Wikipedia did not say, "The attribution of such an event may be to a supernatural being (a deity), or may be to magic, or may be to a miracle worker, or may be to a saint or may be to a religious leader."


It doesn't have to. It's clear from the context that a miracle is attributed to something. George sees a bright light, thinks it's a miracle and attributes it to the demon Wormwood. Jim sees the same bright light, understands how a flashlight works and attributes it to the laws of physics. The attribution is inherent.

Percy writes:

...neither of you have suggested an alternative definition.


A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes.

That doesn't disagree with Wikipedia.

Percy writes:

they unambiguously ascribe the cause to the supernatural or God.


Even you can't say it without using words like "ascribe", and yet you claim that that isn't an important aspect of the definition.

Percy writes:

But what if a miracle *did* occur? How would science respond?


The same way it responds to anything else. What it would not do is call it a "miracle". If the results were inconclusive, they would be called inconclusive.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 1:30 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:02 AM ringo has responded
 Message 389 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 2:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 365 of 671 (826754)
01-09-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 10:24 AM


Re: Consensus
That sounds like a good enough one for me. As a believer, I usually think that God or another supernatural force/being can be involved, but for the purposes of this forum and discussion, that need not apply. The cause is unknown. The effects are reportable yet subjective by necessity.

Percys Bridge Scenario fits the definition for the purposes of discussion.

Ringo may be arguing that one cannot create hypotheticals out of thin air and that there are no as yet verifiable miracles...so my next question is this:

Are there any documented and verifiable instances that appear to have violated the known laws of science and physics anywhere that we can reference?

If not, I can see ringos point that all we have are contrived hypotheticals which arguably would qualify as a start to consensus.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 10:24 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 366 of 671 (826755)
01-09-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by ringo
01-09-2018 10:54 AM


Confounded Consensus
ringo writes:

A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes.

More correctly, some observers attribute it to supernatural causes. Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation. Thus, much of our definition for the purposes of consensus revolves around consensus on our individual subjectivity.

What I might take a leap into defining, you might wait until the cows come home before offering a tentative definition. Percy is attempting to persuade you to agree on the semantics, but you by nature always like to argue ---you seem to have great skills at pointing out exceptions to any and every rule or suggestion.

Question for you: Does the word Miracle seem to imply an inference towards the supernatural? Is this why you refuse to use it?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 367 of 671 (826756)
01-09-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 10:24 AM


Re: Consensus
~1.6 writes:

What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur.


Consider the Miracle of the Sun, a.k.a. the Miracle of Fatima. People saw what they thought was a violation of the laws of physics - but scientists have suggested several possible explanations.

What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 10:24 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:31 AM ringo has responded
 Message 390 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 4:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 368 of 671 (826757)
01-09-2018 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-09-2018 11:02 AM


Re: Confounded Consensus
Phat writes:

Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation.


Including science. Science doesn't have a "Goddidit" option, even for flying bridges.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by kjsimons, posted 01-09-2018 11:22 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 656
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


(1)
Message 369 of 671 (826760)
01-09-2018 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:08 AM


Re: Confounded Consensus
ringo writes:

Science doesn't have a "Goddidit" option, even for flying bridges.


With all the advances of science, if I saw a flying bridge I might first wonder, after I recovered from my initial shock, if somebody's anti-gravity experiment had gotten out of control!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:08 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 370 of 671 (826763)
01-09-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:06 AM


Re: Consensus
Ringo writes:

What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain.

I get that you do not believe miracles can exist.

I get that you seem to be of the camp that believes what ever has ever been deemed a miracle is simply something that has yet to be fully explained.

Given all that; humanity still does not KNOW if something can ever happen that will violate or suspend the laws of nature.
And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something does
would you be content to call that a miracle?

Will you break out in a rash and convulse on the floor if you use the word miracle?

Even in fiction miracles can't occur in your world? No deus ex machina for you.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:06 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 371 of 671 (826767)
01-09-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 11:31 AM


Re: Consensus
~1.6 writes:

I get that you do not believe miracles can exist.


Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist.

~1.6 writes:

And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something does
would you be content to call that a miracle?


If science calls something a miracle, I'm perfectly happy to call it a miracle. As far as I know, it's science that doesn't include the possibility of miracles.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:31 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:44 AM ringo has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 372 of 671 (826768)
01-09-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Consensus
Ringo writes:

Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist.


Do you?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:49 AM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:50 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 373 of 671 (826769)
01-09-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Consensus
~1.6 writes:

Do you?


As I've said, if science calls it a miracle, I have no problem with calling it a miracle. If somebody calls something "inexplicable", that doesn't mean it's inexplicable to everybody.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:44 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:53 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 374 of 671 (826770)
01-09-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Consensus
Its like playing Simon Says with him, though he calls it Science Says.

Do Miracles Exist?

ringo: Not unless science says they do.
Do you?

You forgot to say Simon Says!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:44 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:58 AM Phat has responded
 Message 388 by 1.61803, posted 01-10-2018 12:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 375 of 671 (826771)
01-09-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:49 AM


Re: Consensus

Edited by Admin, : Narrow image width.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:49 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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