Did Jesus die in vain?

The problem with your analogy is that once said prosecutor gets Guido, and grants Luigi his pardon, or whatever, they don't torture Guido for a day or so, then send him to New Zealand to play in a paradise for eternity.

Well, it supports my point. We only send people to New Zealand when they are not guilty of anything more than living in a country illegally, and they're naturalized citizens of New Zealand.Now, if you find a news story about us capturing bin Laden and sentencing him to the beach in New Zealand, I will retract my comment.

Jesus is dead, but for Christianity to work, he rose form the dead and went to sit on the right hand of God in Heaven. From what I understand, Heaven is supposed to be a pretty good place. And not only did Jesus get to go there, he knew he was going to.So for your analogy, not only did we send our mob boss to New Zealand, we told him before hand that all he had to do was make it through one really bad day, and he'd be sent off to Paradise.

Interesting. It's amazing the things we did to win WWII.But, he got sent back to Sicily. That's no where near as nice as New Zealand (in my opinion), it's more like being put into Purgatory than Heaven.

I don't think this conflicts with my post. I was replying to Iblis who said:

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Anyway no, he's definitely dead. Eternally dead. The fact that he also seems to be still alive is because he had Eternal life. But it's just an illusion, like the CMB. He's really truly dead.

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You seem to argue that he didn't return to physical life, but is "living" in a dual spiritual form, both on the right-hand side of God and in people who have accepted him.If this is true, I don't think it changes the fact that its not much of a sacrifice for someone to put themselves through an incredibly terrible day, knowing they'll be fine 3 days later, able to help people accept God, and talking to God in Heaven.

I'm male, so obviously, I can't comment on how a mother would describe the process of giving birth, but I would agree that it is an apt analogy.If there are any mothers currently posting on the forum, would you consider birth to be a sacrifice?

Assuming you're right, that still doesn't sound like a sacrifice to me. Sacrifice, to me, implies deciding to give up something you would rather keep. Deciding to do it only because you see the benefit to others as being more important than that which you are giving up.God, being omniscient, knew before he incarnated as a man exactly how it would play out, so in the grand scale, the outcome isn't God giving anything up that he would have rather had.During the course of Jesus' life, it could be argued that he didn't have the omniscience of God any more, being made man. But again, by the time he was crucified, it seems that Jesus had internalized the fact that he was the son of God, and expected to be taken into Heaven. Again, he didn't give up anything he would have rather kept.So, while it may be that Jesus death is profound, and is, indeed, the basis of the Christian religions, it isn't a sacrifice.

For one thing, for me to feel anything about something, I have to believe it happened. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe Jesus did anything after he died (if, in fact, he ever even lived). Also, it states clearly in the Bible that a person cannot sacrifice something on behalf of another person and gain anything from God. The person him/herself must sacrifice. Beyond that, there are passages that seem to indicate that a death sacrifice won't work at all either. Again, I have to disagree. How did Jesus take upon himself separation from the Divine Father by ascending to Heaven and sitting on the right-hand side of God?As for my "sins," I realize that I have made poor decisions in the past and try to make better ones in the future. I consider that the process of learning, and its one of the things that makes us human. I cherish my mistakes even as I rue them, for without them I would not be the person I am today. I don't think mistakes we make cling to us like some oily residue unless we fail to learn from those mistakes. I won't take a 200 year old book that was written primarily for illiterate nomads and shepherd's word for anything. I'm also finding it difficult to understand how a person can "become sin." Don't even get me started on the "stated facts in the Bible." You have stated assertions in the Bible, many of which we can show to be wrong, and many others that we no longer believe (selling your daughter into slavery, anyone?) Still, none of this implies a sacrifice. If Christ somehow comes into you, that seems to be because he wants to. Sacrifice means giving something up that you would rather keep, because by giving it up you can help someone else.For Christ to be making a sacrifice, you have to show that he doesn't want to do the things he does. Jesus didn't know me on a personal level while he was being crucified, unless you posit that he could see the future. In which case the claim of his sacrifice becomes even less logical and more tenuous. God hardening Pharaoh's heart is another example of the inhumanity of God. He makes it so Pharaoh can't be anything but a prick, and then punished Pharaoh for being a prick. Sounds pretty mean spirited to me.Again, I can't harden my heart against something I don't think exists. My heart isn't hardened against fairies or leprechauns or unicorns, either.All in all, it doesn't make sense, either in the Bible itself, or logically, that a man living 2000 years ago can do anything about the mistakes I make today.Edited by Perdition, : Typo

Jesus is an aspect of God right? They are separate but the same, or some such thing? If that's the case, could God not have sent part of himself to dwell within people without sending Jesus down? Couldn't God have forgiven people their sins without the pageantry of incarnating as a man and "sacrificing" himself to himself?I don't see the reasoning behind Jesus, if God is as powerful as people seem to think he is.