What if Satan reformed?

I don't tend to stick with traditional Christian views because I believe the premise of free will is not correct. There is will and there are choices, they are just not free.from Eph 2:22Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:Thus those things in the natural are controlled by spiritual events. Everyone without Christ/Baptism of HS are controlled by satan who reports to ie is controlled by God. Look at the relationship in the promotion of Job. Satan could not act until God released the hedge of protection but Satan was still controlled and is of God's creation as stated that he was a murderer from the beginning. This is in accordence with Isa 45:7 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.So until an individual is dragged to Christ because God/Satan are diametrically opposed spirits, he/she reports to satan who reports to God. Thus there is no free will. If so, then Ballaam would certainly have chosen to speak a curse against the Israelites and receive riches and glory from the king. Balaam reported that he could do no more or less then what was God's will although it was not known that "God" in this case was Israel's god. Or when the ark of the covenant was sent home on the back of a donkey with an offering it could only have gone back to Israel if it were not by chance. So although things appear on earth to be by science and by physical laws, they are predestined by the will of God through Satan.The act of being saved is against one's will:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.Once on the other side, the elect are heirs of Christ and are destined to do not their will but the will of the Father. And the will of the father must include some wild stuff because believers are stapled to their flesh for the duration of their physical life on earth.Thus there is no affect other then God's will. And the lie ie satan will get extinguished at the end times. God will not forgive because He never intended to forgive those he did not predestinate and elect to become heirs. By Romans 9, he decided to hate Esau and love Jacob as twins before they were born. The hole purpose of the OT was to see that dirt acts like dirt and could not choose God by "free" will. Otherwise you would think that the daily miracles would have been sufficient to get individuals to choose life over death. The choice cannot be anything other then what God predetermined else that man could boast about it to all the elect. Imagine the coctail party where God and Satan are talking about destiny in this were not the case. God would say that Satan was a liar from the beginning and that He was destined to be extinguished. Satan would say yea but I broke away from my bondage and I chose to believe in JC and my will is triumphant over God's.... I think not.

Funny and thought provoking. It would have been planned as well. My own thoughts along this line is that those living at the end times will ultimately see the proof of who was in control. My own thoughts along this line is that the proof is in the genes. It would be interesting to find that genetically speaking, Adam, Christ, Eve (with a y exception) and satan are all carbon copies of the same genes. Thus God proves that the original is corrupt and will seek a life apart from God and that the variation in woman goes in the same direction. But when God intervenes spiritually the same nature is nurtured toward a relationship with God. But by the time man finishes the project on genetics and gains understanding into the nature, the plan will collapse. And in locating some leftover genetics in the Vatican or elsewhere, Christ will be resurrected in the flesh as the Antichrist. And well, I don't plan to be here at that time. But for the shcolars that record the event, proof that the genetics were exactly the same will give God something to boast about.Or maybe we should mutate from a deistic approach and go fro tristic approach. Or isn't that free will?

Now that you mention it, cloning and transexual transformation have got to be good for you because those first generations lived in excess of 1000 years. And would that mean that social security would still kick in at 65?But your point is well taken. To get the genentic diversity there had to be a lot of sex with angels going on. And I suspect the garden event was that of a sexual nature as many have theorized over the years. It just seems obvious that one would "notice" their nakedness from a little spilled blood or from pregnancy. But I am still betting on the fact that the whole thing was planned down to the subatomic level because it is the best thing going. And I believe the silly things are road blocks to separate the faithful from the faithless.

Absolutely we are headed for Armageddon. Although the God of the Muslims, Jews and Christians is the same God, all gods are put here by God. Look at the story of Balak and Balaam. Balaam was offered a huge reward for cursing the Israelites. But Balaam claimed he could only say what his God told him to say and nothing more/less. Obviously his free will would have led him to speak the curse especially in light of the fact that Balak had the capcity to take his head and probably would have if not for the intervention of the angel of the Lord. It is most interesting that capital LORD is used indicating that Balaam was praying directly to the God of Jacob yet it would not have been the same God that the Israelites prayed to because they prayed to God, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It would have been something like the president of Iraq going to Billy Graham to pray a curse on antoher Muslim faction. When God says that He goes down to the depths of shoel, there he is. God has purposed the degradation of our social fabric and even the division of the church. He brough on 9/11 as well as the hurricanes and sunamis. He is fulfilling his purpose to separate those that are dirt from those pieces of dirt that He intends to put His spirit into. The good news is that you get a ticket so long as you had one before the foundation of the earth. The bad news is that if you don't get one, it was intended that way. And the other bad news is that you have to be drawn to God which indicates resistance. So be prepared to go from green pastures to the valley of the shadow of death! And it would be a good idea to hook up with some Christians along the way that can direct you to the front door.

I think it just needs to get tied back in. Scripture indicates that those natural things that God hates will be extinguished including Satan. And although there are probably a lot of people believing that they have a part in the final battle between good and evil, the book says that it takes not a legion of angels and all the Christians, but one angel to handle the situation. In Rev 20, Satan gets resurrected to try to fool the elect but there are no takers, because by definition the only ones that are left love God. So there is no place on earth for him and Satan is extinguished. Thus it is already determined that Satan does not reform.Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Angel DNA? Start with basketball players lol (the nephillum were men renoun and stature I guess that means they were tall and had big penises because the women liked to have sex with them). Heb 13:2 suggests that we might be entertaining angels and not know it. Thus their DNA thusly would be indistinguishable from ours. And maybe we still have yet to discover the genetic code for wings! At any rate, I would suggest that living with angels is a silly thing of God that is set as a stumbling block to separate believers from nonbelievers.I used to think that it was stupid but then my life didn't stand for anything. At least now I am aligned to the "stupid" side as the life after the death of my flesh appears better then life here. I don't believe I had a choice as God's elect, and I don't believe Satan has a choice due to the Word and the nature of what was said in scripture. And at 40 something I have to take most of what I know on the basis of what other people said because I wasn't around for history and science to unfold.

duh. The nature of life and the fact that we have to eat life to sustain life was/is a shadow of what Jesus said when he offered his flesh and blood. But it is a necessity at the cellular level to sustain proteins and enzymes or at least DNA chains to be able to coexist with other elements of creation or evolution as I guess you would call it. I didn't think the topic was intelligent design, but Satan not having a choice is the design and by definition, God isn't going to give away His hand to those that are to be distinguished by easy tests. Didn't the Nazis try to corner the market on that?But speaking of tests, it would be cool to have some kind of correlation for scientists. The Bible code is a pretty cool idea and I am sure it has been debated on this forum. Perhaps the Word of God may also have been written in a genetic sequence. Now finding that would be cool. Maybe one of those nuclear scientists in Iran could be transfered to Israel and asked to help with the study of the genome??

sort of. I don't believe that free will ever existed. To use an analogy, I believe Satan is more of a computer program than a "free" thinker. The Word says that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. And since God created evil, then He prgrammed Satan to fall from heaven based on an outcome. His days are limited to a set routine and Satan will find himself extinguised by a single angel in the end. And while Satan can read the word a billion times, Satan cannot change the end or we would then have to throw out all scripture because God could change His mind too. In that sense, we all follow the plan of God, but we either report to the spirit of life or the spirit of death. And if we do some of the silly things of faith then we at least are poised to receive mercy and grace from God through Jesus although even that is determined before hand. The Word says that we are drawn to Him. That implies resistence which is contrary to "free" will. Mike would choose death if given the chance just like a negative charged magnet repelling a similar force but in the analogy opposites repel. We cannot move toward God until God draws us by removing the amount of repelling force. And God already determined that He hates satan and all dirt that isn't elected to become vessels for him. That is the point behind Roman 9 which basically states that He chose to love one twin and hate the other. But He did it in the opposite fashion of what the world would have chosen. He rejected the son with the birthright, was honest, and loved by his father Isaac. Rather Jacob, the thief which is his name was the momma's boy and was chosen to father the tribes of Israel. And God programmed it all before the foundation of the earth so that no one person could boast because God if funny about giving ANYONE credit about ANYTHING.So if you find yourself doing the silly things (cuz most of us fall under the lost elect from the gentiles rather then as direct descendents of Israel) then while we may be liars, we are at least lined up with the right things of God. And simple acts of faith are important like asking Jesus into our lives, praying, fasting, and speaking in tongues. They seem stupid because there are no emprical laws that back them up. But then that is the point. And while Satan does praying, fasting, etc. they are not counted as faith because they are an abomination. And even if Satan thought his heart was right for repentence, by DEFINITION he is a murderer and hates God. So God will extinguish him as such. Finally if you do a search for God and repent, you will see that God does change direction. I call it the Woody Allen effect because God likes to act in His own movies like Woody. So if God changes His mind, it also had to be planned before the foundation of the world. Otherwise we may have a God that is an Indian giver. But God said that He is the truth but that is based on His plan. That is not to say that He does not send liars or evil or even to repent as part of His plan because all of those instances exist in the Word. We just have to set our definitions based on God! And if you get tripped up thinking it is silly, then the road block is on purpose.

are you getting God and the wizzard mixed up? hehe.Anyway, for those that love empiracal evidence, consider sexual predators. After Dateline NBC has aired a show three or four times and people watch predators get exposed (hehe) on national tv and then find themselves on a way to a cell with Bubba, they continue to line up in front of a staged escapade. Satan must be in charge of this type of behavior cuz it's the only way it makes sense. One you would think that as soon as someone comes in the room they would leave and ask for an attorney if they have an IQ above 40 and 2 you would think that if Satan was in charge with free will he would at least have them show up with a pizza and pretend to be a delivery boy or something. My point is that all of this is staged for the benefit of God's elect. From proverbs 19-22 God speaks that He makes the heart of the kings go where he wants. He says that you may think of something different but what you say is ordered by Him and that your steps are determined by God. And if that isn't enough Jesus becomes the author and finisher of your faith when you become saved. Thus there is no room for improv. If I can't be the writer or the editor of my actions, then all I can do is follow the scipt like a computer program.

That is my point exactly. There is no "free" will. We might have a hard time indicating what free means. I would guess that it means there is a 50/50 probability between two mutually exclusive and exhaustive categories. And that the opportunity to make a choice is not hindered by an intervening variable. Now when we investigate God, we understand that He is running things on both sides of the coin so to speak. In fact the Psalms indicated that He knows the lots before they are cast. So flipping a coin isn't really chance, every flip was determined before the foundation of the world. To me that is like going downtown to play the shell game in front of a con artist (no disrespect intended to God btw). I don't want to put my money on the table if I really don't have an equal chance of winning. So if God is influencing the coin toss, then the choice isn't free at all. So I can understand if someone has not seen Dateline and gets caught, but what I can't understand if free will is involved is for predators to do nothing to protect themselves from Dateline so to speak. You are right, common sense would indicate that if a predator has seen the show then that someone would do something to avoid speaking into the microphone. So the erge as you call it is a demonic influence that prevails over common sense. But the only way to test it would be to find out if given the same circumstances the individuals could avoid the exact same circumstance. But unfortunately we cannot test that because part of the intervening variables are time and knowledge which create affects once the hidden cameras are revealed. Prov 19:21 states that there are many plans in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. So if predator A is to get saved in prison as a result of his proposed sin against minor A then it happens as a result of the Dateline investigation. If God's plan for predator B to be an object of wrath then the sinner stays a sinner as a result of Satan's influence on the subject. But there is never an opportunity for either predator to change the outcome as per Psalms 139 which states that every member (day) was written before formed in your mother ie the foundation of the world.Or your idea is at work and we need to cut off their penises. Or rather we should just kill them because we cannot be sure that they will ever do it again. The real issue comes when they get out of prison because the elect of God should start producing fruits of the spirit which don't include predation. But on the other hand society doesn't understand spiritual things so will have to punish all equally and guard all equally. While we may want to think this way in Utopia it isn't practical. It really makes most sense if all the craziness was planned by God and that He is in control down to the subatomic particles.

I believe you are tripping on some semantics of flesh vs computer program. There need be no difference beteen a physical being or one that goes between physical or spiritual or both. That is a process we cannot test unless someone calls themself Satan and even then we dont know if that person is a liar. And the issue of change does not negate a computer program but rather a threshold for a subroutine. The Word confirms that God is not a liar, but God sends lying spirits and God repents. He just had to plan the change from before the foundation of the earth. Thus when God is acting like Woody Allen, he is simply following the script. All things are predictable by simple premise and if we could see the spiritual forces at work, we could predict them just like God. If an act is by the prince of the earth then it is a lie and is antigod. If an act is twarted by God in order to reveal His elect, then it is righteous. Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith of the elect. All other faith is not really faith. It is a lie. So through the plan of God, it was intended that Jesus guard the writing of the Word and call all those that are of the elect. And the editing is a finished work. No one can change that especially Satan who is not of the elect.The gray area is for those of us that are trying to tell who is the elect and who may become the elect and whether actions are righteous. The simple answer is from Prov 19:21 which states that there are many plans in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. Thus no matter what, God controls the physical. But in my mind, I will only find rest when I realize that He is in control of every molecule. If not, then I will find myself preaching like Paul and trying to figure out how something God hates (my flesh) can be stapled to the love of God and do or continue to do things which are detestable. So faith is really personal. Faith creates resistance to move from hatred of God to God. But once an individual becomes a believer all bets are off. If the person has little amounts of faith then that person may end up with a lot of religious rituals. If the person has great faith then that person may be led by God to do acts that might be considered crazy. Just look at David to see weird things going on without consequence. Thus to be on the wild side you need to have great faith. In reality some of the greatest what we would call murderers were actually of the righteous. Look at Mannassah, David, Mosses, even Paul who murdered in the name of God. And Paul was purposing to murder the very first elect out of the gate. Thus the only place I can find where it is safe to rest is that the whole crazy thing is purposed by God. ALL OF IT. And if you can't see it, perhaps you should pray for the pride to be removed in your life, because I cannot find a scripture which would indicate that my free will overrides God's plan. And I cannot find where God is waiting for each elect to determine whether or not they want to accept him. That is absurd.

sorry. rambling.It was Moses who said he was the humblest man on the planet, but would guess that most everyone around thought it was pride. The fact is that I was on the fence about predestination and election until a pastor friend helped me over. I do beleive that he received revelation through a Joseph experience. He had a lot of time on his hands and went through the scriptures and continues like no one else I have ever met. I wasn't exactly excited to give up my free will but I find the rest there. And since it isn't my idea...But as for pride I will take your comment in stride, as Paul did the thorn in his side where God reminded him that if he didn't put a governor on that he would speed outa control As for the premises. I believe they are sound. And Mat 10:27 says to shout it from the rooftops so I apologize if I was shouting with a bull horn and u r my neighbor

Satan was programmed by God to work evil. He was a murderer from the beginning. He cannot change, because he is not part of the elect nor of the righteous. It is written that Satan has the purpose of trying to seduce the elect after the 1000 years. Thus evil becomes the witness that those of God cannot be tempted. Then he is extinguised. Thus Satan is already planned to be locked up in the end by a single angel.People have much the same predestined path to follow. Those that have not be saved are under the authority of satan until they get saved. Once saved they are under the authority of the Holy Spirit and all is according to God's plan for grace and mercy. God determined who would be part of the elect group before the foundation of the world. And the elect are drawn to him in resistence.The resistence is due to the fact that God and Satan are diametrically opposed. And there is no "free" choices because like the Israelites that saw miracles on a daily basis and chose not to believe, flesh is under the authority of satan and will repel God. So the Holy Spirit has to intervene on the will of the elect to make sure they are dragged to God. Then they become heirs.All was decided long ago. God's will is a completed work and we don't wait around for individual wills to decided or hold up the process.

RevDG, we are born in sin and shappened in inequity. We follow the prince of the world (satan) until we are drawn (resistence) to God based on a plan that God contrived before any of us were born. If God is going to change His mind willy/nilly then He may squish us all like bugs which He could do but won't based on His word. As for predetermining the group of the elect, are you prepared to cut Rom 9 from the Bible which follows Malachi? For the exact purpose that no man could boast and be prideful above God's will, He purposed to love one twin and hate the other before the foudation of the world. That is your God. Do you still love Him now?And please don't confuse God so loved the world with the world of all people. God made hell and intends to send a lot of people there. And the same author that wrote God so loved the world also quoted Jesus as stating that He (Jesus) prays not for the world but for those that the Father has given Him. Further scripture indicates in end times that there will be separation from those doing the same work in that some are taken and some not. Thus there will be some empty places in the pews and some people left shaking their heads in disbelief.I didn't write this stuff, He did. But I don't hear too many sermons on Rom 9. BTW God has absolute control over satan, I never implied He didn't. I only implied that He created a plan and is working it backwards because His ways are not our ways.As for the elect, they were predetermined. If you were not predetermined, you are a vessel of wrath and you don't have a chance. But you won't know that until it is too late. On the other hand even things such as simple as reading this forum can indicate faith as faith comes by hearing the Word. The elect are called to speak the Word and will be rewarded as having shown acts of faith in so doing. We just need to have an alter call on the forum.

RevDG, forgot to suggest you repent for calling God a monster. I believe KJ frequently uses fear the Lord.