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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 109 (347170)
09-06-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mjfloresta
08-14-2006 11:32 AM


Re: Melchizedek as type of Christ
Wow, I must concur with Faith here. This was a great post. I'm kind of disheartened that I'm only just now seeing it nearly a month after the fact. This would have ben fun to participate in. Great post.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mjfloresta, posted 08-14-2006 11:32 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by mjfloresta, posted 09-07-2006 6:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 109 (347846)
09-09-2006 7:13 PM


Two Christs or two different times?
I'm wondering if some people are confusing the Bible with the Talmudic discourse on the messiah's...? In the Talmud it makes mention of what certainly would seem to be two messiah’s. And of course the Talmud is a discourse itself or an exegesis on the Scriptures. In their best estimation, there is one who suffers and is rejected. The other, who precedes him, will reign gloriously. The one who suffers is known as ”Mashiac ben Yosef,’ because like Joseph of Genesis 37 he is rejected by his own brethren, but is ultimately glorified by God. Thus, the majority of Israel will reject this messiah. The second, ”Mashiac ben David,’ is named as such for two reasons. Like David of the Tenach, he will reign gloriously as a king and subjugate the gentile nations under Israel. As well, this messiah must come from the genealogical line of David. Invariably, its been assumed that these are two separate individuals. Humanly speaking, this is completely understandable. However, is this really the case? What would happen if Rabbinical scholars have been looking for two messiah’s, instead of one Messiah, at two different times?
Afterall, Jesus came lowly to this earth and was beaten and scourged to take upon Himself our punishment, however, prior to His crucifixion He promised to come back in the same manner that He left us, in the clouds, to return with power and glory. So, what if Rabbinical scholars misunderstood the nature of their own messiah and have confused tradition to mean two messiahs instead of one?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Nighttrain, posted 09-13-2006 11:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 109 (349141)
09-14-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Nighttrain
09-13-2006 11:29 PM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
Well, since He didn`t come from the genealogical line of David, that rules out Jesus as the Messiah
And how have you deduced that he didn't come from the line of David?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Nighttrain, posted 09-13-2006 11:29 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Nighttrain, posted 09-14-2006 7:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 109 (349147)
09-14-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Nighttrain
09-14-2006 7:31 PM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
Patriarchal descent.
I'll explain to you how Jesus and only Jesus could be the messiah and how He comes from the physical line of David through his mother and avoids a specific curse that comes through the patriarchal line of David. Isaac begat Jacob, who begat 12 sons of his own. These sons would establish the 12 tribes of Israel, from which they are so named even to this day. God reveals that of the twelve sons, the fourth, ”Judah,’ would be the one through whom the Messiah would come out, of. After a stretch of time, David was hailed as the greatest Jewish king to sit on the throne of Israel. David ruled for approximately 1,000 years prior, to Yeshua (Jesus). God informed David that his descendant would rule forever. We see that God has decreed that there would be a king who will rule forever and that he would come from the nation of Israel. This narrows messianic eligibility down for any prospects. As well, Messiah will specifically come from the tribe of Judah. These two restrictions significantly narrow down the eligible list of candidates for the Messiah.
Now, we know that mankind was in need of a future Redeemer because of the original Fall of man spoken of in Genesis. All men have been building up Adam, as ”ben,’ in Hebrew, means, ”builder.’ In Biblical times, the father’s seed counted towards lineage, not the mother. Even today, tradition maintains that a son or daughter from a marriage typically takes the surname of the father. This is precisely why intermarriage was forbidden in Biblical times. Hypothetically, an invading foreign army with aspirations of establishing a new regime could impregnate Israelite women, and so, lose their heritage by way of attrition. This was not done out of issues of race, as so many have presupposed. Even today, a Jewish person is considered either a ”Cohen’ (Priest), or a ”Levy,’ (Levite), according to who is father is. Many Davidic kings on the throne of Israel had Gentile mothers. Did this make them Gentiles from the Tribe of Judah and the family line of David?
“But you Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting.” -Micah 5:2
“For unto us, a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His Name will be called, ”Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His Kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.” -Isaiah 9:6-7
The prophets Micah and Isaiah wrote these prophecies some 700 years prior to Jesus’ birth, just so you know. We know this empirically from a few different corroborating sources, such as, but not limited to the Dead Sea Scrolls. In these messianic prophecies they describe the Messiah as being eternal. We know that only God is eternal, and so, Messiah cannot be merely a mortal man, but rather, something greater than that. Aside from this glaring point, since when is a man, any man, referred to as ”Mighty God’ and ”Everlasting Father?’ So, what else are we to deduce, other than, that the Messiah is God incarnate? Its evidence is all over the Old Testament prophecies and clearly fulfilled in the New Testament. The Old Testament is said to be the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. Truly, we see this duality and harmonization all throughout the Scriptures, given us, by God. There is no duplicity between the texts, but rather, they are homogenous. Aside from this, any man who might claim to be the Messiah has heavy burden to overcome. In all actuality, it is physically impossible to overcome. We know that Mashiac will come from the line of David. Nevertheless, as we will see, the line was essentially cursed from the time of the prophet Jeremiah. Just as Israel was going into exile, God made two declarations that first appeared contradictory about the last Davidic king over Judah, Jehoiachin (or other translations, ”Coniah’). The first declaration was that of his physical descendants, that no one would ever sit upon the throne of David, in spite of the fact that they would continue to inherit the rights to the throne. How can this be, right?
“Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O’ land, land, land, hear the Word of the Lord! This is what the Lord says: ”Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.” -Jeremiah 22:28-30
Well, this really presents a problem for everyone in Davidic lineage to inherit the throne, isn’t it? How can the Messiah overcome this? The second declaration makes it clear, if we have ears to hear and eyes to see. Also a promised ”Branch’ would raise up the throne and sit upon it.
“In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from the line of David; He will do what is just and right in the land. In those days, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the Name by which he will be called: ”The Lord Our Righteousness.’ For this is what the lord says, ”David will never fail to have a man sit on the throne of the house of David." -Jeremiah 33:14-17
Thus, we see that the Messiah is not a son of Adam, but rather, a Son of God. Because Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, rather than, by the will of a husband through natural procreation, He did not inherit the curse of Jehoiachin. However, because Joseph was His legal guardian, and Joseph and Mary were both from the line of David means that ONLY Jesus could still sit on the throne and avoid the curse. Jesus elucidates this point to the Pharisees by showing that David himself has considered the Mashaic to be God in the flesh.
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, ”What do you think about the Christ (Messiah)? Who’s Son is He?’ They said to Him, ”The son of David.’ He said to them, ”How then does David in the Spirit call Him ”Lord,’ saying: ”The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies a footstool?’ If David then calls Him ”Lord,’ how is He his son?’ And no on one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to question Him anymore.” -Matthew 22:41-46
Jesus is exactly right, (not that this should come as a surprise). How can David say, “Then the LORD said my Lord,” if he was not talking about God? Who is the Lord? The Lord is God, right? David himself is pointing out the deification of the Christ, and very plainly, that the Lord, the Messiah, is God the Son and that the LORD God, is God the Father. These are very clear teachings, and yet, the vast preponderance simply does not want to believe this truth because of its implications. But, Jesus was very clear. He essentially stated to the religious elite, if you know God, as you claim to do, then you would know who I AM; as it is very evident by your lack of fruitfulness, that you do not know who I AM.
And from this, Jesus asks the all-important question:
Who is the Christ (Messiah)? So they said to Him, ”Some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ He said to them, ”But what about you? Who do you say, I AM?’ Simon Peter answered and said, ”You’re the Christ, the Son of the Living God.’ Jesus answered and said to him, ”Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by My Father in heaven.” -Matthew 16:14-17
There is little else for us to surmise.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Nighttrain, posted 09-14-2006 7:31 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Nighttrain, posted 09-14-2006 9:00 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 31 by ramoss, posted 09-19-2006 8:59 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 109 (349751)
09-17-2006 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Nighttrain
09-14-2006 9:00 PM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
I`ll surmise away. Regardless of the convoluted apologetics you use which can be attacked on several fronts, if the Messiac heritage of David was gained through Mary`s line, why bother to include Joseph`s? Wishful thinking? Scandal of birth? More of Matthew`s accretions?
Because Joseph came from the physical line of David as well and any son, whether concieved from his loins or adopted has rights to the throne. What makes it more compelling is that had He been Joseph's physical son He would have inherited the curse. God in all His wisdom makes it so difficult for anyone to actually meet the criteria of being the Messiah that literally, just as He said, He would appoint for Himself the 'acceptable sacrifice.' Indeed, that's what Jesus is.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Nighttrain, posted 09-14-2006 9:00 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 109 (350313)
09-19-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ramoss
09-19-2006 8:59 AM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
First of all, when it comes to the Jewish expectations of the Messiah, the expections are to be 'From the seed of David'.. 'From the root and branch of Jesse'. This specificlaly means an unbroken line through the male line.. father to son, and no adoptions.
The Jews were also expecting a warrior messiah who would destroy the Roman occupiers. It just shows our lack of erudition on the matter.
“Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O’ land, land, land, hear the Word of the Lord! This is what the Lord says: ”Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.” -Jeremiah 22:28-30
And then a few chapters later we read:
“In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from the line of David; He will do what is just and right in the land. In those days, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the Name by which he will be called: ”The Lord Our Righteousness.’ For this is what the lord says, ”David will never fail to have a man sit on the throne of the house of David." -Jeremiah 33:14-17
Second of all, according to the New Testament, Mary is a Levite. She is cousins with the mother of John the Baptist, who is a levite. This eliminates the potential that either Luke's or Matthews Geneology refers to Mary's line.
Mary and Elizabeth were related just as John and Jesus were related through them, however, this does not mean that Miryam was not from the tribe of Judah. Elizabeth could easily have been a Levite while Mary was from Judah because it does not mention how closely they are related. If Mary was the daughter of Heli as stated in the gospel of Luke, then Jesus was strictly a descendant of David, not only legally through his reputed father, but rather by direct personal descent through Mary. We also know that she had no brothers since she had no brothers. Mary was an heiress to that throne and therefore her husband, according to Halacha, was reckoned among her father's family as his son. So then, Joseph was the actual son of Jacob and the legal son of Heli. In a word, Matthew shows us Jesus' right to the throne through legality and Luke, through His natural pedigree. Understand now how difficult it is to be the messiah?
What human being doeswhat only God can do, spoken throughout messianic scripture, and can be a living descendant of David and yet avoid the curse? Its impossible. Therefore, just as YHWH foreshadowed through Abraham, "God will provide HIMSELF the acceptable sacrifice." Jesus came to us Mashiac ben Yosef to be our suffering servant, but He will come back to us with glory to subjugate the nations as Mashiac ben David.
There is no 'fall of man' as you are describing it in Genesis. That is the exgenesis of Augustus, based on the misinterpetation of Paul.
First of off, I never said anything about the Fall of man, secondly, what is your Pauline misinterpratation based on?
None of the words of Isaiah have anything to do with Jesus. Isaiah was talking about things that were immediate as a sign to King Ahaz.. and therefore a child born 700 years later would be irrelavent to King Ahaz.
No other prophet so beautifully gives us messianic scripture than Isaiah. King Ahaz, huh? King Ahaz was a ruthless king who didn't get to be burried in the royal tombs because nobody liked him. So, how is it that Isaiah should prophesying or speaking about King Ahaz in a positive light? Explain to me why you think Isaiah is talking about King Ahaz and not Jesus.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ramoss, posted 09-19-2006 8:59 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ramoss, posted 09-20-2006 10:10 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 34 by jar, posted 09-20-2006 1:33 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 109 (523579)
09-11-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by greyseal
09-11-2009 9:15 AM


Re: Prophecies
I'm told that the prophecy of Tyre came true...but it didn't. People still live there (of course, the gymnastics comes in to talk about "the mainland" vs "the city" and of course the prophecy meant the city...)
Oh gosh, don't bring up Tyre. It won't only be mental gymnastics, it'll be the Olympics!

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by greyseal, posted 09-11-2009 9:15 AM greyseal has not replied

  
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