Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life

Ringo316,==========================
"The law" is about outward things that we do, not about what we inwardly believe, or claim to believe.
==========================Well, not completely. The last of the ten commandments was "You Shall not Covet..."Now this was a catch all. It is a commandment against a feeling, and inward motivation. It is really a commandment saying that you shall not feel that way inwardly.So some self righteous ones may think that they have kept all the other nine commandments. But God includes this tenth one which no one can escape. All have coveted or wanted jealously what another person had.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-06-2005 10:52 PM

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Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
================================It is true that these saved "sheep" are justified based on thier treatment of "these the least of My brothers." But this justification does not apply to anyone reading this discussion today.The time of this judgment is after the Lord comes to sit on the throne of His glory to judge the nations who are left alive after the last few years of this age before He establishes His millennial kingdom.Those nations which followed the last intense rebellion against God led by the final Antichrist will persecute the people of God who are unfortunate to have to live through that time of great tribulation. These persecutors are the goats.Those nations which were considerate to the refugees among God's people who are fleeing the realm of Antichrist will be the sheep who will be saved and transfered into the millennial kingdom.Jesus Christ said that some who are kind to a prophet or a righteous man would receive a prophet's reward. Right here He teaches this:"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whoever gives to one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward" (Matt.10:41-42)The justification of the sheep in Matthew 25 is because they have been kind to the Lord's persecuted prophets, and disciples, and righteous men, and little ones, and even the least of these His brothers. This will take place during the last days of the great tribulation. And it would be extremely unwise to expect today that you could escape eternal perdition as an one who rejects Christ's gospel of salvation. We are commanded to put faith in Him as the Lord and Savior.There are three groups of people in the Matthew 25 passage:1.) Those unkind to the least of the Lord Jesus' brothers - the goats to perish.2.) Those considerate to the least of the Lord Jesus' brothers - the sheep who will people the earth during the millennial kingdom.3.) The least of these the brothers of the Lord Jesus - the persecute people of God destitute and suffering under the Antichrist.The passage refers to a transitional time just before the second coming of Christ to establish a new age on this earth. And the passage does not nullify the need for us, in the gospel age, to believe in the resurrected Christ as our Savior and judicial righteousness before God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-06-2005 11:32 PM

jar,================================
Ah, nice try. But not what the Bible says.Matthew 25 writes:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:Before him will be gathered ALL Nations. Not some remnant. All Nations.
==================================In the book of Revelation MANY of the nations die. Since the setting up of the throne of Christ's glory is after this time "all the nations" would mean all the nations which are left alive. It is quite logical.The words "at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory" refer to the throne of David (Luke 1:32-33), which will be in Jerusalem (See Matt. 19:28; Jeremiah 3:17).This is the time of "the restoration" and would refer to the millennial kingdom. And this judgment is at least 1,000 years before the great white throne judgment to occur AFTER the millennial kingdom. And in that judgment He is not on the throne in Jerusalem. Rather heaven and earth have fled away and the entire population of dead human beings stand suspended before Him who judges.The two judgments are separated by a length of 1,000 years - one being in the beginning of the Messianic kingdom of the Son of Man and the other being at the end of the Messianic 1,000 year kingdom.Matthew 25 therefore refers to Christ's judging of the living nations left at the time of His second coming before the millennium (Acts 10:42; 2 tim. 4:1) .It differs from His judgement of the dead at the great white throne after the millennium (Rev. 20:11-15)===================================
In fact, a reading of Matthew 25 shows that the goats will be followers of Jesus, Christians while the sheep will most likely be Atheists, Agnostics and other assorted Pagans.
===================================You started off slightly plausible. But with this latter comment you have departed into something wildly off.The goats have done what they did without knowing that it was done to Christ. The sheep also have done what they did without knowing that it was done as to Christ. So neither one bare the marks of followers of Jesus.The followers of Jesus in the passage should be "the least of these His brothers." It should also include some Jews preserved by God during that time as is indicated in Revelation chapter 7.The passage has its parallel in the parable of Matthew 13:47-50 which speaks of the same event.In the three parables of Matthew 13:44 through 50 -Verse 44 concerns a parable of Christ's dealing with Israel.Verses 45-46 concerns a parable of Christ's dealing with the church.Verses 47-50 concerns a parable of Christ's dealing with the Gentiles.The third parable (47-50) corresponds to Matthew 25:31-46. Here is the same event told in parabolic form:

"Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net cast into the sea and gathering from every species, which, when it was filled, they brought onto the shore, and sat down and collected the good into vessels; but the foul they cast out.

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So it will be at the consummation of the age: the angels will go forth and separate the evil from the midst of the righteous, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (Matt.13:47-50).The sheep in Matthew 25 correspond to the good species from the sea in Matthew 13. And the goats of Matthew 25 correspond to the bad species from the sea in Matthew 13.The plain teaching is in Matthew 25 is given in the form of a prophecy. And in Matthew 13 the same event is told us in parabolic form.This is Christ's dealing with the Gentile nations who remain alive at the end of the great tribulation just at the time Christ establishes His millennial throne in Jerusalem.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 02:51 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 02:53 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 02:57 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 04:07 PM

Ringo316,==========================
That interpretation is not supported by Matthew 25. There are no "three groups of people" mentioned - only the sheep and the goats. And the only distinction between them is based on what they do - not on what they say or "believe".
==========================Ringo, you gunslinger you. There are three groups.Goats who treated these the least of His brothers.
Sheep who treated these the least of His brothers.
And these the least of His brothers.If the least of His brothers are the sheep, then when would they have time to do the good deeds? They are imprisoned and sick and destitute. So Christ is not talking about the least of these His brothers treating one another.There must be two parties free to act. And one party not free to act, upon which the other two act.I agree with you that they are indeed judged by what they do. We are in agreement there.But by what logic do you propose that either the sheep or the goats could at the same time be "these the least of My brothers?" Demonstrate your logic how this could be.=======================
Some would say that that interpretation is supported by Matthew 24, but others would say that it is not supported anywhere in the Bible.
======================I am willing to labor more to demonstrate that this is the proper understanding. If you would like additional proofs.============================
In any case, the "millennial kingdom" and the "Antichrist" are not the topic of this thread. The topic is "Right Behaviour Inherits Eternal Life".
============================This statement is rather lame. If your desire is to seek the truth of the interpretation of the passage, then other matters must be brought in.If I say in a discussion that the earth is flat and you respond by saying that certain scientists and navigators strongly demonstrated that the earth was round, should my response be "Well, those scientists and navigators are NOT the topic of this discussion."If additional matters need to be brought into the picture such as Antichrist and the millennial kingdom, to correct your erroneous exegisis of Matthew 25, then they support the discussion of the topic.If you don't care about the truth but only care about your topic, well then I guess we all just have to say "Whatever you say Ringo. Whatever you say."This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:12 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:19 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:28 PM

jar,================================
We were discussing Matthew 25.
Matthew 25 says all the nations. Pretty clear.It really is as simple as that.
================================It should be clear that the time and the place of the event are important.Jeremiah 3:17 says "At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah, and all the nations will be gathered to it because the name of Jehovah is at Jerusalem ..."In this prophecy nothing is said about the resurrection of the dead. The clear meaning is all the living nations.The judgment of Revelation 20 is of all the dead. And there it does not mention nations."And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them."If earth and heaven fled away so that no place was found for them, then where was Jerusalem? You got it, I hope - nowhere.And it does not say the nations. It says ..." And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the DEAD were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works.

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And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works.

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And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

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And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" The dead have judgment pronounced upon them according to their works. But they perish according to the absence of their names from the book of life.This is after the millennial kingdom, of the dead not the nations, and the perdition is based upon not having been recorded in the book of life.This judgment of Revelation 20 we may call "the last judgement." It is not the same as the judgment in Jerusalem, of the nations, on the throne of the King's glory, according to treatment to these the least of the Lords brothers. And the judge is the Son of Man, which title relates to the Messiah.The Bible says that God will judge the living and the dead. It does not say that He will do so at the same time.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:57 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 04:00 PM

Carico,==================================
If right behavior gives us eternal life, then we're all up a creek without a paddle. But of course if you ask any of us if we are good, most of us will answer "yes." That's because we conveniently forget that we have all at one time, lied to our parents, friends and neighbors, taken money when we could have given it to the poor, neglected to feed the hungry, cursed people on the freeway, coveted our neighbor's cars, houses, looks, talent, intelligence, etc. and on and on. So no, as Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." We are not capable of being honest about our wrongdoings and therefore are not qualified to judge our "goodness." Only Christ's death has paid the price for our sins so we can be pure enough to see God.
===========================================Most people do not understand the terrible holiness and perfection of God Almighty. I would say to anyone reading this discussion that if we have to answer to God for one sin - we'll never make it.I said, if we have to answer to an eternally perfect and absolutely holy God for one sin, just ONE, we will never be saved.Now here's the good news.JUSTICE AGAINST OUT SINS HAS ALREADY BEEN CARRIED OUT.On the cross of Christ justice was imputed against us IN Christ. It is not that God overlooked our sins. He does not say "I know you didn't mean it. Let's just forget about it." No He judged our sins on the cross of Christ.If we receive Christ as Lord, we agree. If we reject Christ as Lord we follow our leader Satan to his destiny.If we are in Christ, we will share in Christ's destiny. If we refuse to be placed in Christ we go down with our leader Satan, to his eternal perdition.Having said that, the title of this thread does have a place. And it will take time to explain it.Ringo316 does have a point (grumble grumble). But I am sure he doesn't understand it.Briefly, Adam before he fell into sin was created neutral and was "very good." (Gen 1:31). Before Adam sinned he was "very good." He was innocent.This "very good" man had no reason to die. He was told that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. He was created very good but neutral between God and Satan. God represented in "the tree of life" and Satan represented in the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"Had Adam not eaten of either source there is no reason to believe that the "very good" innocent man was under condemnation. He just could not fulfill God's eternal purpose.God will in His sovereignty preserve a portion of the human race to be restored to the neutral state of "very good" in which Adam was before he fell. These peoples are the peoples over which the sons of God who are born of God in His salvation will reign.The Bible says repeatedly that the saints of God will reign over someone, both in the millennium and in eternity. It is not logical that they reign over each other. There has to be people on the earth over which the saved saints can reign. These are the nations who are restored in the Restoration to be in the state of the neutral created Adam before his fall. They will be restored to be innocent and "very good."Some of the passages in the gospels, particularly Matthew, refer to these restored peoples who are the nations to be ruled over by the sons of God.The sons of God have eternal life imparted into them. God indwells them. But the New Testament speaks of peoples who will enter into the realm of eternal life. They are not born of God. But they enter into a restored state of Adam before his fall.So in this regard, indeed, there are some verses which indicate restored peoples entering into a realm of eternal life.In Revelation it speaks of those who eat the fruit of the tree of life and of those who are healed by the leaves of the tree of life.To eat of the tree of life is to take God's divine life into your human life to be born of God to be a son of God.To be healed by the leaves of the tree of life is to be restored to the state in which Adam was created before his fall. He was not born of God. He did not have the indwelling Spirit of God. But he was innocent, neutral, and pronounced "very good."Some skeptics notice these passages and use them to try to nullify the gospel of repentence and regeneration in order to receive eternal life.There's more to this. But I want to cut this post here. The Bible is not always a snap to understand. It is not always that simple. And some people who think that they have all the answers think so because they over simplify something which involves more than they want to explore.

This is a test.Thanks Admin.

Ringo,======================
Anyway, you're over-complistificating the whole thing.
======================I am beginning to have questions about the level of your bias.A little story:An astronomer and a theologian were talking. The astronomer says "I appreciate theology. I think the whole thing comes down to 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'"The theologian responds "Hmmm. I also appreciate astronomy. I think the whole thing boils down to 'Twinkle, twinkle, little star.'"The nature of this forum calls for short and concise posts. I can't write a chapter here.Some things are not so simple in interpretation. In application though, one may say "I gather this spiritual lesson from this passage. I should be kind to those suffering."In application there is sometimes no need to consider other things which interpretation call for. Such as:1. What is the throne of Christ's glory?
2. When will the nations be gathered before Him?
3. what events preceeded this event?
4. What events follow this event?==============================
I think that people emphasize the "evil" of sin too much. Adam wasn't "evil". All he did was eat some fruit. He screwed up, but not maliciously.
===========================I agree with some of this. After all, the tree that he ate from was not the tree of evil. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.It seems that good as well as evil was represented by the tree.The dichotomy there was not between good and evil. It was between God's life and the knowledge of good and evil.========================
Sin isn't mainly about mass-murder and orgies. Sin is stepping over the tramp in the doorway instead of trying to help him.That's what Matthew 25 is all about. The sheep, those who looked after the least of their brothers, are rewarded. The goats, those who merely paid lip service to "God's plan" are punished.
=========================It good to get to a point where your pet peeves don't cloud you comprehension of the Bible.I sense that you still have your axes to grind and they color very much what you want to see in the Scripture.

Tell me how do you put the quotes into a nice box, somebody?Jar,=====================
True, he may do so on an ongoing basis. IMHO, probably does
=====================Yes. There is more than one judgment. And guess what? "For it is time for judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us ... ?" (1 Peter 4:17)=============================
But that still has nothing to do with the passage from Matthew 25.
=============================How so?===========================
In there he gathers all the nations together. And divides them in two groups. Not three, two.
===========================Well, it is true that it only mentions that He divided into TWO groups.But there must be another group related to the teaching. That is the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.Physically, I have no ground in that particular passage, to point them out. Logically though, they can not be either the sheep or the goats.Now if I wanted to identify this third logical group, I could refer to a number of places in Scripture related to Christ's second coming. One place which I might refer you to is Daniel 7:9-10 which says:"I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool;

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His throne was flames of fire. A stream of fire issued forth And came out from before Him. (Dan.7:9,10a)Now here's the clencher."Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him.

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The court of judgment sat, and the books were opened" (v.10b)Now, here in this prophetic vision, you must admit that there are those who minister to the Divine One and those who stand before Him.Now if those who minister to Him are the brothers down to the least, then this would be that third group. And of course those tens of tens of thousands which stand before Him, could be divided up into those to perish and those to be saved, ie. goats and sheep.That is three groups. Am I right?Everything seems to be there. The throne, the burning flame, those of His elect who minister to Him, and those to be judged standing before Him.Now compare with Matt. 25 and see if a correspondence is way off or plausible.===================================
The sheep are surprised that they were selected. Now if the groups contain belivers, then why the surprise? The sheep did not expect to be among the saved, they had no idea of why they were chosen, respond, "Are you sure?"The goats though are surpised that they are being excluded. They expected to be among the saved. They are shocked that they are not included and respond "Say What?"
====================================Though you draw a distinction between the reaction of the sheep verses the reaction of the goats, I detect none.It seems that thier reaction, as recorded in the passage, is exactly the same. The results and destiny only differ.If you compare verses 37 through 39 (the sheep) to verse 44 (the goats) there is no difference except some elimination of some words. I don't think you have strong ground to point out any difference in the reaction of the sheep verses that of the goats.And the reaction of both is "When have we ... ?". Nothing much more is said then that.=====================================
He then goes on to talk about how the decision on separation is made, and it's on behavior.
====================================I agree. As I have before stated. Works is the key factor in this particular judgment.===========================================
There is no direct mention of belief, but one very important alusion to it.
===========================================There is an underlying belief to the two types of actions. But it is not recorded in this passage. I can show you where the underlying belief structure which gives rise to the works lies, perhaps latter.Digest these thoughts to see if they make any sense.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 11:23 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 11:32 AM

Ringo,=================================
That's what Matthew 25 is all about. The sheep, those who looked after the least of their brothers, are rewarded. The goats, those who merely paid lip service to "God's plan" are punished.It really is that simple.
=================================I think you'll have to shoot a little straighter than that, gunfighter.1.) Christ said as you did to the least of these "My brothers." He said nothing about "[your] brothers."You are reading into the passage that He said to the sheep "Inasmuch as you did it unto the least of these [YOUR] brothers, you have done it to Me."Doesn't say that. Then your second shot:2.) The goats say absolutely nothing about God's plan. If God's plan is mentioned at all it is by Christ Himself:"Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (v.34).The goats don't pay any "lip service" to this at all in the passage. Neither group does.And I also refer you to Daniel 7:9-10."Thousands and thousands ministered to Him" (v.10b) who was sitting on the throne of fire. And "ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him, the court od judgment sat, and the books were opened" (10c).If we divide the ten thousands of ten thousands standing before the Judge into those to be saved and those to be condemned, we get two groups. That would take care of sheep and goats.Aside from these, the thousands of thousands who minister to the One on the throne, could be the brothers of the Christ, down to the least of them. They all minister to thier Lord.That would be three groups.With the fact that judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is based upon thier works, I have no dispute.When I said before that your explanation was erroneous, in that regard it is not. To that extent that was a miss speaking. Sorry.To the extent that there is no third logical group in the passage, I have pointed out that there must be. And the related prophetic vision of Daniel certainly indicates that there is.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:03 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:06 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:11 PM

Test. Thanks Admin.

Ringo316, Well, I didn't mention the rapture. I don't think it really matters here.I think the ministering to the Lord is akin to what we are told in Acts 13:2 The prophets and teachers in the church in Antioch were seeing to the the interests of Christ:"And as they were ministering to the Lord ..." (Acts 9:2a)The brothers of the Lord are caring for the interests and plans of the Lord. It is the same in Daniel 7:10. There is a lot to do to rule with Christ over the saved sheep nations. That is correct.But as I said before I think Christians and Jews are the Lord's brothers in the passage. That would be a remnant of preserved Jews who become the saved Israel at the end of this age.I have passages to back this up. But won't include them now. Oh no. Here it comes. Before, I said that this passage probably does not refer to anyone present at this time reading this discussion.But in the transitional time, about three and one half years before the second coming of Christ, some people will be saved and transfered into the kingdom established by Christ on the earth, because they were considerate to the persecuted brothers of the Lord Jesus.And I also previously warned that it would be foolish at this time to expect to be redeemed because of that today, that is IF one has no intention of believing in Christ the Lord and Savior.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:39 PM

Jar, I have a dim view of Christianity (depending on what you mean). I have a very high view of Christ Himself and the church. "Thousands of thousands ministered to Him ..."Similiar utterances are found in 1 Kings 22:19; Psa. 68:17; Heb. 12:22 (which would indicate both angels and humans); Rev. 5:11 (angels); Matt. 26:53 (angels)).I might be inclined to say that the thousands and thousands ministering to the One on the throne in Daniel's vision might include angels also. I see that some words are eliminated in the record of the response of the goats as compared to the response of the sheep.If you say that the fuller inclusion of the missing words indicates "shock" I could see some ground to derive that. However, it could be that Christ simply shortened the response of the goats. I think your view is at least plausible. I don't feel to rule it out. I agree with you that Christians will be judged according to their works. If we get into a discussion about the judgment seat of Christ for believers strictly, you will see that such a matter is very clear.However, I do not think that Matthew 25:31-45 is the place to see that matter.And secondly, the judgment of Christians who are saved for eternity, is not for deciding their eternal destiny. It is for deciding their reward or discipline during the 1,000 years. And the 1,000 years is prior to the eternal age in which eternal life is a gift in grace for believing in Christ.But if you want to underline that God is not foolish to be unconcerned about how a person redeemed by grace behaves, there are plenty of passages outside of Matthew 25:31-46 to teach that.The judgment of "the least of these My brothers" is not spoken to in that passage at all, period.Now, in the passages leading up to verse 31, you do have1.) A Parable of Faithfulness (25:14-30)2.) A Parable of Watchfulness (25:1-13)3.) A teaching of prudence and watchfulness (24:45-51)4.) A teaching about watchfulness and being ready for His coming (24:32-44)All of these teachings and parables DO concern Christian believers. But when you get to verse 31 of Matthew 25, the Lord Jesus moves off of that subject and on to another. And that is His judgment upon the Gentile nations who are alive at the time He touches down again upon the earth.The least of these His brothers, as to their judgment, has amply been dealt with BEFORE Christ speaks to the matter of the remaining nations who live through the days just before His second coming.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 01:12 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 01:14 PM

Ringo, Your interpretation calls for the Lord condemning some of His brothers to eternal perdition which is prepared for the Devil and his angels (25:41).Is that the position you wish to take? That we are all Christ's brothers and some of His brothers will depart into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels?This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 01:41 PM

I have tried to show you the logical third group. I seem to not be able to convince you.Well, anyway, looking at the passage again I have to say that the angels would be a third group in the passage itself: "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and ALL THE ANGELS WITH HIM, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory" (25:31)The angels who come with the Son of Man are a third group.So now I have to revize my explanation a little. There are actually FOUR groups. Three are actually mentioned in the passage. And the brothers of the Lord, the "THESE" are the implied fourth group.Four groups:1.) The angels who come with the Son of Man2.) The sheep3.) The goats4.) "the least of THESE, My brothers"In the Daniel passage, groups #1 and group #4 may be combined to be the thousands and thousands ministering to the Lord.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 01:51 PM