Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life

A quick note before I go read the rest of the thread:Some twenty years ago I was completely shocked to read the claim that the earth had never heard of salvation by faith alone until Martin Luther wrote it in his margin next to Rom 3:28. Surely, I thought, the Bible uses those words somewhere.It does. One time. James 2:24. "So we see that man is justified by works, and not by faith only."The only occurrence of the words faith alone or faith only in the Bible is a denial of it. That should tell us something, don't you think?

Me, me, call on me! I want to answer this!I have an opinion on this, because the people who say "I believe, and therefore I'm going to heaven, and belief means my works don't matter" irritate the daylights out of me.The action associated with faith is believing. The example I like to use is a person who claims to have faith in Hulk Hogan (just a for example). So Hulk Hogan comes on TV and says that if you want to be healthy and live long, you should stand outside in the snow in only boxer shorts at midnight for one half hour as often as you can.The person who actually does that can say they have faith in Hulk Hogan. Everyone else is lying or fooling themselves.It's the same with faith in Christ. Why claim you have faith in Jesus, and then ignore or deny the things he said? For example, Mr. T once said he was a Christian, but added, "I'm not Jesus. If you hit me on one cheek, I'm going to hit you back."Will you give your shirt to the person who stole your coat? Will you ask nothing in return from those you loan to?The problem is, most people today, when they say they have faith in Jesus, don't mean that they believe Jesus. They mean that they believe some stories that they have heard about Jesus. They have heard that he died on the cross for their sins, and they believe that if they believe that story, they will go to heaven.That kind of faith requires no action. It is simply believing a story or tale. Faith in a person, however, requires believing the person, and everyone agrees that means you will do what the person says will benefit you, otherwise you don't really believe him/her.Back when "the faith" was also "the way," it was both because faith in Y'shua produced a lifestyle; the lifestyle prescribed and taught by Y'shua. It worked back then, and it was quite impressive. Impressive enough to win over much of the Roman Empire.It still works, when faith means believing Christ and not just believing some stories about him, and it's still quite impressive...to everyone.

I agree, and it is interesting because they used Abraham to make statements that are 100% contradictory based on just the words (one said "justified by faith apart from works," and the other said "justified by works, and not by faith only"). But for the record, I don't think Paul disagreed with James a bit on the necessity of works. I think they used justify differently. In fact, remove Martin Luther's influence from history, and the James/Paul contradiction on works has really never existed. (The role of the Law is a different story.)

This is terrible! Is this what you get from Romans?The one who can't keep the Law needs deliverance from himself, not the Law!Rom 7:24 "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death!"Rom 7:14 "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin."Rom 7: 12 "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good."Again "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death!" Not "Who shall deliver me from the Law!"Christ sure didn't determine to deliver from the Law. Christ determined, according to Paul, to deliver us from ourselves so that..."...so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" (Rom 8:4). ...edited for punctuationThis message has been edited by truthlover, 11-17-2005 08:27 AM

Re: jano's post 47I notice you ignored the verses I referenced.Good news isn't really all that great if it's made up or from an unreliable source.

You did make a statement, but you didn't answer Paul's plain statements that it was deliverance from self that was needed, not deliverance from the law. Whether that is the purpose of the Law of Moses or not, the Law of Moses is not the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is what Paul is describing in Rom 7, where he found a law in himself, in his members. Rom 8:2 agrees with the verses I gave you, which you are still ignoring.

Rom 7:23 "But I see ANOTHER LAW in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN THAT IS IN MY MEMBERS."Really, this is pretty much a no-brainer. By the way, it's now three posts that have ignored those verses I gave you.

Actually, I've never talked about going to heaven at all in this thread.

A quick definition for you. The Greek word for members there means limbs...arms & legs. It's used of all body parts in Paul's writings, as you must already realize, so it is basically the same thing.Outside of that, I rest my case here, too. I think it's plenty well-established.

You really like this "try" thing. I've told you before, I'm not the one who said that.However, since you're asking and since the title of the thread addresses it, I believe God judges according to works. I believe in the reward of eternal life to those who "patiently continue to do good." I believe in retribution to upon the soul of those that do evil, though I don't profess to know exactly what that retribution will be.Somewhere, I'm not even sure if it was in this thread, you asked for the verses on judgment by works. Here's some:

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Rom 2:6-8: [God] will render to every man according to his deeds. To those who seek glory, honor, and immortality by patiently continuing to do good [he will repay] eternal life. But to them that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, [he will repay] indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish.

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2 Cor 5:10,11: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive the deeds done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.

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1 Pet 1:17: If you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear.

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This next one does not directly say judgment, but the implication is obvious:

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Rev 3:4,5: You have a few names, even in Sardis, who have not defiled their garments. They shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before his messengers.

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Quick note: I never use "angels," because the Greek word angellos means messengers, and is translated that way a few times. "Angel" is not a translation; it's just a transliteration of the Greek word into English.I'd like you to notice some things. While many argue that Rom 2 is referencing unbelievers, there's really no good reason to assume that. It doesn't say such a thing, and it lines up with the other verses quoted here.The verse in 2 Cor is a clear reference to believers, and despite constant assurances from Christianity that our bad deeds will be forgotten, that verse specifically says they will be brought up. It is this judgment that Paul says inspires "terror" and motivates him to persuade men.I'll add here that in another clear reference to believers, James 5:20 says that we all should "turn sinners from the error of their way" in order to "save a soul from death." That passage begins in v. 19 with "Brethren, if any of you err from the truth..."1 Pet 1:17 says that those who address God as Father will be judged according to works, and that it is those who are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ (vv. 18,19) who should fear as a result.Rev 3:4,5 is written to a church, and it says that those who are "worthy" will walk with him in white, and those who "overcome" will received white raiment, not have their names blotted from the Book of Life, and be confessed before the Father.All of that lines up, of course, with the only description of the judgment that there is, which is in Matt 25; a judgment which, as you know, addresses only works.And, finally, although there's still several more verses that could be addressed, it is the doing of evil or good that makes the difference between a resurrection of life and a resurrection of condemnation, according to Y'shua himself (Jn 5:29).I would prefer your version of events. In your version, there is no cause to fear. I believe, and any good I do by the Spirit of God is sort of "automatic." I can't be worthy, so I don't have to worry about being worthy in order to walk with him in white. That version is very comfortable. The only problem is that the Scriptures warn against that version several times with words like "don't be deceived," "don't you know," and "Let no one fool you with empty words."So, I think I'll just go on fearing and recommending fear to others. Not some crazy fear that is pathological, but the same healthy fear that might cause an angry man to withhold from punching a boss, because he doesn't want to lose his job or go to jail.One more point: I can trace your version back in history to one man, Martin Luther. Before him, you can't find your version of the judgment taught anywhere by anyone. The gnostics did have a no works version of judgment, but that judgment and their god is nothing like what you or I believe in, so I doubt you would want to agree with them.History may not matter to you, but when there's little to no backing for a doctrine in Scripture, and then 1500 years later it can be shown that a great political leader invented the doctrine (and worse, that his followers were widely known for their immorality); knowing all that, it leaves little doubt what the real source of your version of events is.It seems like that ought to matter to you.

Because you didn't show that. You quoted a verse where Paul says that the Law (of Moses, I agree) aroused sin is the members of his body. That does not make the Law the same thing as the law of sin and death in his members, especially when he specifically says there is ANOTHER law operating in his members.The Law of God is good, just, and perfect, but it brings about death because of ANOTHER law that operates in our bodies, the law of sin and death.Christ can deliver from the law of sin and death (that other law, which is in our members), says Paul, so that the righteous requirement of the Law (of Moses) can be fulfilled in those of us who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

I would like to know how you reconcile this thought of yours with Paul's statement that:"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin, he condemned sin the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in those of us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" (Rom 8:2-4).And with John's:"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not burdensome" (1 Jn 5:3).I suppose it could be said that his commandments are not burdensome, if they're so hard that you aren't required to keep them, but that would be a joke, not an interpretation.

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The apostle Paul: "What the Law could not do, God did! The righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who walk by the Spirit."

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The apostle John: "His commandments are not burdensome."

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Jano: "His commandments are so difficult, they ensure failure."

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Um, these can be reconciled?...edited for formattingThis message has been edited by truthlover, 11-28-2005 05:45 PM

No, it doesn't. That has nothing to do with what I asked at all. This, on the other hand, does. So you're agreeing that those "in Christ" and "after the Spirit" can fulfill the righteousness of the Law and won't find Christ's commands burdensome? You're agreeing that this "particular category of person" doesn't have the bar raised so high that they must fail?

Well, I can't say that makes a lick of sense as far as the context of Rom 8:2-4, and it doesn't even address Christ's commands being kept and not being burdensome in the John quote, but I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. Well, neither interpretation is different to me. They're different to you, because of what you're after. I believe Christ offers a real righteousness in which I actually can become righteous, and live life in a good and clear conscience in holiness before God. Therefore "was enabled and did occur" is not any different to me than "some further action" being required, because I am after, and I believe Christ offers, "some further action."I'm really not interested in a righteousness in which God pretends I'm righteous even though I don't live that way, and I'd be embarrassed to tell others that's what God is offering.I want to be "his workmanship, created in King Y'shua to do good works; the ones God has prepared beforehand for me to do."Hoping that he'll pretend I did those works, because the Master did some other works 2,000 years ago is not much worth hoping for.

You take things really weird. You spend all your time on causes and rewards. I have carefully avoided all that, because your focus on causes and rewards allows you to completely ignore whether obedience is going on or not.Here you are saying that Jesus' commands will be kept by those who love him. I have been trying to get you to admit that this is what the Scriptures say. So here you are for at least the second time directly agreeing, but you have also repeatedly denied it being true. It's like you're schizophrenic or something.So, again, I am asking the same simple question. Do you agree that the Scriptures teach that those who love God will keep his commands? (You just said it for at least the second time, but when you're asked directly, it's apparently offensive to you to admit it's true.)If so, then why do you keep saying it is impossible to keep his commands?No matter how much you go on about what causes obedience or what the reward of obedience is, you surely have to believe either that his commandments can be kept or that they are impossible to keep. They can't both be true.