What is the I in ID?

whatever What is the means by which God made us in His image?

Whatever - I guess our discussion is over, unless you decide to bring any kind of sense to the debate. I ask for a definition of "kind" a dozen times, and I get: If you think this doublespeak and the constant use of the word "obvious" somehow serves as a definition, you are sorely wrong. Perhaps visit the forum glossary to see what a definition is, since you apparently don't know, or are apparently quite rude. Also, though asked by myself and others, you haven't explained why subspecies can diverge from kinds, but kinds can't diverge from kinds. Or why your evidence supports a common creator vs. a common ancestor. I'm not even sure why I'm bringing it up again, since I only expect another doublespeak response. I have been a vegetarian for the past seven years. Hopefully you are as well, since you seem to be preaching the value of vegetarianism on this forum, and I would hate for you to be a hypocrite. Hopefully you also understand that cooked meat in general, especially beef and pork, contain high levels of DNA mutagens - and hence have been strongly linked to certain types of cancer. (Much more so than shellfish consumption.)In fact, cooked beef is one of the most potent sources of DNA mutagens common to the human diet, especially when cooked over fire (presumably a common method in OT days). Since there was never a biblical proclamation (that I know of) forbidding consumption of beef, I stand by my assertion that God's design of us with an instable genetic template goes against his intention of maintaining that stability.If you can give me any non-biblical, scientific evidence that the human spine is designed to function in greater airpressure, or that the airpressure in the atmosphere was higher due a water canopy, I'd be interested. Scientific evidence, please, no biblical references.

Gee, I sure think it's doublespeak. Perhaps a missing "not"?

this is just warmed over creationism, not IDall biblical references are irrelevant to IDthe question posed here is how does the design get implemented.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

still no mechanism for getting from design to reality ...still more warmed over creationism, irrelevant to the question of ID

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

do you even read the Bible?You assert: Where do you get such nonsense?Have you read Genesis? and let's move on to Egypt and Exodus 12 v8-11 Of course the Hebrews ate meat.But what does the diet have to do with ID?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm trying to tease a bit of ID out of the diet ramblings, namely:- Whatever asserts that God was very concerned with genetic purity, (and made dietary laws concerning shellfish to prevent mutation).- I assert that red meat cooked over fire is one of the most potent sources of DNA mutagens (based on cancer genetics research).- Thus the intent of the designer to provide absolute genetic purity and stability does not match his choice of genetic template and dietary laws.Hence the designer couldn't have been very intelligent in this case.

pink sasquatch, I thought for red meat to be kosher they were required to press all the red blood out of the meat, think its ok to eat some meat, but have nothing against eating meat other than the iron, hormones in the blood thats not being pressed out of the meat makes it not kosher.I'm not sure about your mutatagens in the meats, if this is related to the unpressed blood, etc...P.S. Someone I knew combined sports medicine (cushion to support lower lumbar when sleeping, driving, etc...) with taking a weight lifting substance called Creatine Monohydrate, they got a loading phase, and a maintance phase for weight lifting, the interesting reason he took up weight lifting was that this substances pumps up ligaments with water, that was supporting his lower lumbar, sacrum joints, if your a vegetarian, and feel your body is a bit dehydrated, you might research the loading and maintaince phases of this combined with supporting the lower lumbar to see if this helps plump up your ligaments to support the lower back. I used to golf with a doctor, who told me if I try this to be cautious cause if one overdoes this it can increase the ammonia in the blood and affect the brain, so be cautious. He took it with fruit juice, think if I remember the loading phase was for 5 days, then you back way off (a lot less every other day or so when weight lifting), so not to overload the body, but just maintain a certain level to hydrate the muscles/ligaments, etc...Page not found – The Water Cure

You weren't talking about kosher you were talking about vegetarian. That's the point of the last 10 or so posts to show you, once again, you are wrong. And on matters pertaining to reading the Bible yet!

So far I haven't seen any convincing arguments about the Intelligence behind Intelligent design. I’d like to give it a try. Please understand that this is a personal belief and so it is worth almost as much as you paid for it.I do believe that there is an I in Intelligent Design and that the I is GOD.But the issue is, where is the evidence of that design?IMHO, that evidence is seen at the basic rules level. Where that level is changes as we learn more. A hundred years fifty years ago I would have placed that at the molecular and gene level. As we learned more, it moved to the atomic level, to the four forces. Later, as we learned more it appeared the design was at the sub-atomic level. Now it might be at the string or brane level but I’m willing to bet, as we learn more we will find the design racing away to just beyond the very limits of our knowledge.Do I see any signs of Intelligent Design in the Universe as we see it, Life as we know it including what is shown at the fossil level?Nope.Those are the results of purely natural forces which in turn are the results of the basic forces that were designed.Did GOD design Man in HIS image? No, of course not.But the basic rules, the things that started it all in motion, the things that determine Dark Energy or Dark Matter or Matter and energy or branes or strings or mathematics or art as we know them, the rules such as Natural Selection, there we may well be able to see the hand of the Designer.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ned, We were talking about how come God designed man's DNA template to be suseptible to mutations by diet, I explained God in the beginning that Adam and Eve were vegetarians, but when they were cast out of the garden they ate meat, but even then before Moses law, back in the creatures of the ark, it called the creatures clean or unclean creatures. It is interesting that God gave the Hebrews the kosher diet, and even today, the only thing that comes close is the holistic movement, showing that this diet was intelligently designed, cause how could the sheepherders know that eating the blood would be detrimental to ones health, or the eating of shell fish would be detrimental to ones health cause the cells couldn't purge the heavy metals from the body, etc... The bible is still the standard, the Hebrews were healthy cause of the biblical standards contained within Gods Words. The bible show it was not written by sheepherders but the Words are Gods Words cause of the wisdom contained came from an intelligence that knew, what man didn't know, these words from the bible came from God, for Gods wisdom is greater than mans.jar, The glaciers testify that the waters had high levels of anti-oxidants, that froze up in the Hunza mountain area, suggesting according to Patrick Flanagan, that the surface tension of these waters is less than the suface tension of water because of the anti-oxidant nano-colloidal particles, so too me, making this little leap of faith, it might well be that the waters pre-flood and for several hundred years after the flood were charged with these charged particles, allowing heavy metals to be purged from the cells, meaning that pre-flood one could of ate any animal, but our life span is not all that long today, some like Patrick Flagan believe in part due to the surface tension of water, as one ages the cell simply can not keep hydrated, and the cells are left stewing within their own celluar wastes, cause the celluar pumps suction is compromised by the surface tension of water, etc...http://www.cybertown.com/slowaging2.htmlThis message has been edited by whatever, 06-22-2004 11:43 PM

adam and eve and the flood are biblical references and have nothing to do with ID: they are not required for ID to be true, and therefore they are irrelevant.creationism and ID have a very basic conflict in that creationism say it was all done is 6 days by a very specific god, while ID says it is an ongoing process that started with the beginning of the universe and could be guided by little green men from alpha centauri.any and all references to the bible are irrelevant to the discussion of ID.and where is that mechanism whereby "design" is processed into reality ... ?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Whatever - you are hung up on heavy metals. You need iron for heme for your red blood cells to carry oxygen - it is an essential mineral for life. Extremely high levels of iron can cause problems, but you'd essentially have to be male and eat red meat twice a day to achieve these.Mutagens in red meat has nothing to do with unpressed blood, it has to do with the searing and high temperatures of fats and flesh, producing classes of mutagens called heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. If you are eating red meat you are consuming DNA mutagens, no matter what your interpretation of the bible.I did a search for "beef AND mutagen" on PubMed and got 233 articles; a search for "shellfish AND mutagen" gave ZERO results; "shrimp AND mutagen" gave 13 results - most of which involved wild populations of shrimp being effected by environmental mutagens, and did not deal with human consumption...Rabbi David Cooper has interpreted "kosher" to mean eating ethically for your own health and health of the world around you - given all we know today, Cooper equates a kosher diet with vegetarianism...Also - quit giving me medical advice! I have had back problems since I was a kid, as did my father, so I am acutely aware of the role genetics plays here - and not the kind of designed genetics that make biological sense, but the kind that evolved by chance.I am very well hydrated; and you have bizarre ideas about vegetarianism given you espoused it in earlier replies. It is generally easier for vegetarians to maintain hydration than meat and dairy eaters (they have a lower fat and protein load, and eat more water-rich foods), though both can stay hydrated quite easily.From your posts you know next to nothing of molecular biology/physiology/anatomy, so you should be careful about dispensing medical advice based on a friend of a friend's weightlifting experience with a golfing buddy... you could screw up someone's life...I don't think I'll be "plumping up my ligaments" based on your advice.

jar - I really appreciate your thoughts here, and I'm glad you finally got them out on this thread.I think you are the first I've heard to argue simplicity as the evidence of design, rather than complexity; and you've done so in humble and tentative terms.When someone has pulled out the old bacterial flagella or complex eye argument, I've often thought to myself, "Doesn't this person realize how amazing the DNA itself is? The simplicity of replication and potential for evolution?"I think mankind is able to grasp complexity much easier than it can grasp simplicity - I think there are a select few in this world that begin to comprehend M theory (I think that's what it's being called these days...)To grasp what is beyond branes and dark matter? Well maybe it is the designer... or perhaps a true Unified Theory of Everything, which might just be the intelligence in the design.

String theory or M Theory is one of those ideas that once you see it defines what I see as the classic scientific reaction.Too many people think that science is made up of the rare Aha!!!!! moments when in reality it is a long succession of "Now why didn't I see that?".edited to add required spelling errors.This message has been edited by jar, 06-23-2004 01:16 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion