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Author
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Topic: 2024 US Presidential Election
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Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 361 of 871 (914844)
02-05-2024 5:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 352 by Phat
02-05-2024 3:11 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Phat in Message 352 writes: Rahvin writes: America has drifted so hard to the right that Americans have lost all sense of what the left actually is. You showed me a video. Can I show you one?
How I Sniff Out Propaganda This is the type of video I will listen to. Can someone please tell me why these people are wrong? Rahvin described that his video was about the numbers that show voters are better off under Biden than they were under Trump. You haven't described anything about your video, so how would we know whether they're right or wrong. Tell us something about it that would make us think it was worth watching. You've got a high bar to clear, though, because over and over again anyone who's watched videos you've pushed have found them to be nonsense.
And when I get back from work, I will describe what these websites and videos say in my own words. It just takes time, is all. If you're posting from work and don't have the time to make your points in your own words, then you shouldn't be posting.
Percy, in another thread writes: Many people's eagerness to make video's greatly exceeds their knowledge. They're entertainers, not highly skilled investigative journalists. They have no special access to information. Their online survival depends upon making things sound as spectacular and mysterious and outrageous as possible - that's how they make it, not by being accurate or detailed or offering clarity. If you're going to continue watching YouTube (or Fox News) just remember that it's entertainment, not news. Watch it if you must, but please stop bringing their nonsense here. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I will attempt to defend it using my own words. Stay tuned. There's no defense for nonsense and garbage. You should seek out quality factually accurate material that won't need any defending. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 352 by Phat, posted 02-05-2024 3:11 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 362 of 871 (914845)
02-05-2024 5:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
02-05-2024 3:54 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Phat in Message 354 writes: Art Berman is a petroleum geologist. He is a known expert. George Gammon is no hack either. The third guy I don't know.
Art Berman Likely, you just disagree with private business expertise and are on board the government source of knowledge bandwagon. There's just no way to make you see the idiocy of what you're doing, is there. This diarrhea of the keyboard is just never going to end, is it. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 354 by Phat, posted 02-05-2024 3:54 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 363 of 871 (914846)
02-05-2024 5:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 356 by Rahvin
02-05-2024 4:24 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Casting pearls... --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 356 by Rahvin, posted 02-05-2024 4:24 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 364 by Rahvin, posted 02-05-2024 5:27 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4046 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 7.6
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Message 364 of 871 (914847)
02-05-2024 5:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 363 by Percy
02-05-2024 5:22 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Maybe it helps Phat. Maybe not. Maybe it helps a lurker. Debating here helped me. It can help others.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 363 by Percy, posted 02-05-2024 5:22 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 365 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 7:46 AM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 365 of 871 (914856)
02-06-2024 7:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 364 by Rahvin
02-05-2024 5:27 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Rahvin in Message 364 writes: Maybe it helps Phat. Maybe not. Maybe it helps a lurker. Debating here helped me. It can help others. Absolutely. And it also helps those who already understand to hear it well said and clearly laid out. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 364 by Rahvin, posted 02-05-2024 5:27 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 6.9
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Message 366 of 871 (914861)
02-06-2024 11:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 365 by Percy
02-06-2024 7:46 AM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Percy writes: Absolutely. And it also helps those who already understand to hear it well said and clearly laid out. Speaking of which, the appeals court has ruled unanimously against Trumps claims to immunity. The decision is pointed, a tour de force of clarity. Much needed.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 365 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 7:46 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 368 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 12:54 PM | | Omnivorous has replied | | | Message 369 by dwise1, posted 02-06-2024 12:56 PM | | Omnivorous has replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5952 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.2
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Message 367 of 871 (914862)
02-06-2024 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 365 by Percy
02-06-2024 7:46 AM
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Re: Sources Of Information
And it also helps those who already understand to hear it well said and clearly laid out. Not only that, but it helps the one presenting his case too. When you have to explain something to someone else, then you have to think through the subject matter thoroughly. You have to substantiate every claim you make and explain how you arrived at your conclusions. In short, we start with an idea that sounds right and which seems to work, though in our minds we gloss over some details which we're sure are right. But then when we have to explain it that forces us to step through our idea and delve into those details that we glossed over before. Not only do we clarify and develop our idea, but we also catch mistakes and are able to correct them or even come to realize that our idea wasn't as good as we had thought. Even though trying to explain the facts to a creationist is just casting pearls before swine, I still benefit and learn from writing that explanation, so it's more for my own benefit than for the swine's. Plus, in urging creationists to explain to us what they are talking about I hope to lead them into that same process so that they can learn from it. Or at the very least to come up with new claims that are not so utterly stupid.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 365 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 7:46 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Re: Sources Of Information
Saw your post and just read an article that included some key excerpts: Trump has no immunity from Jan. 6 prosecution, appeals court rules. These are from the ruling:
quote:
We have balanced former President Trump’s asserted interests in executive immunity against the vital public interests that favor allowing this prosecution to proceed
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We cannot accept former President Trump’s claim that a President has unbounded authority to commit crimes that would neutralize the most fundamental check on executive power — the recognition and implementation of election results. Nor can we sanction his apparent contention that the Executive has carte blanche to violate the rights of individual citizens to vote and to have their votes count.
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We conclude that the interest in criminal accountability, held by both the public and the Executive Branch, outweighs the potential risks of chilling Presidential action and permitting vexatious litigation.
And these are miscellaneous comments from the judges and attorneys during oral arguments:
quote:
I think it’s paradoxical to say that his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed allows him to violate criminal laws
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Your separation of powers arguments fall away, your policy arguments fall away.
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Never before has there been allegations that a sitting president has, with private individuals and using the levers of power, sought to fundamentally subvert the democratic republic and the electoral system.
Here's a link the ruling: Appeals Court Ruling on Trump's Immunity Claim --Percy Edited by Percy, : Add link to ruling.
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5952 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.2
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Re: Sources Of Information
And Trump's lawyers have exactly one week to submit an appeal to the US Supreme Court, thus eliminating yet another long delay. Looks like a shadow docket situation. Though my understanding is that a justice is assigned to each appeals circuit and would be the one to consider the appeal in through the shadow docket. Does anyone know who's assigned to this one?
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 6.9
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Message 370 of 871 (914865)
02-06-2024 1:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 368 by Percy
02-06-2024 12:54 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Thanks for all that, Percy. I was excited to see it, but had to paddle the roux. I don't care so much whether he is convicted, I just want Jack Smith to hammer him in open court with the evidence. That's what Trump fears most.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 368 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 12:54 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 6.9
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Message 371 of 871 (914866)
02-06-2024 1:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 369 by dwise1
02-06-2024 12:56 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
I'm certain all 9 judges will consider whether to accept the appeal, whoever is assigned the DC appeals court. I mostly don't think they will. The appeals court nailed it down pretty tight -- they clearly think so; accepting that is the easiest off ramp for SCOTUS.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 369 by dwise1, posted 02-06-2024 12:56 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 372 by Rahvin, posted 02-06-2024 2:35 PM | | Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 373 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 3:50 PM | | Omnivorous has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4046 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 7.6
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Re: Sources Of Information
I agree. Overturning that ruling would put the country in an absolutely insane place, and I think it's a bridge way too far even for this court. And I think they'd much prefer to just stay the hell away from it. Letting the existing ruling stand is the easiest solution for them.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 371 by Omnivorous, posted 02-06-2024 1:56 PM | | Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 375 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2024 5:02 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Re: Sources Of Information
Omnivorous in Message 371 writes: I'm certain all 9 judges will consider whether to accept the appeal, whoever is assigned the DC appeals court. I mostly don't think they will. The appeals court nailed it down pretty tight -- they clearly think so; accepting that is the easiest off ramp for SCOTUS. There's been a lot speculation in the press about what that offramp might be, especially after they turned down prosecutor Jack Smith's request to skip the lower court, but if any of the opinion pieces I've read mentioned that SCOTUS might decide to let the lower court ruling stand then I missed it. It would be a brilliant way for the courts conservative members to avoid tarnishing their conservative bona fides. About the February 12th deadline that dwise1 mentioned, I think that's the time they gave Trump to request a stay from the Supreme Court before their ruling takes effect. If he does so by that date then the ruling wouldn't go into effect pending a Supreme Court decision. An appeal to the Supreme Court is a different matter. I believe Trump has 90 days to file an appeal, June 6th, just a month before the Republican National Convention, and he'll likely take the entire 90 days. If the Supreme Court agrees to hear the appeal then by the time briefs are filed and oral arguments are made Trump would likely already be the Republican nominee. If the Supreme Court moves slowly, as they sometimes do, the election could be over before they render a decision. That possibility opens the door to another possible offramp: SCOTUS delays until after the election, and then if Trump wins rules the issue moot since sitting presidents cannot be prosecuted. On Thursday the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in the Colorado case that ruled Trump off the primary ballot because he engaged in insurrection, and SCOTUS needs an offramp for this one, too. --Percy
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 6.9
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Message 374 of 871 (914875)
02-06-2024 4:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 373 by Percy
02-06-2024 3:50 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
Percy writes: That possibility opens the door to another possible offramp: SCOTUS delays until after the election, and then if Trump wins rules the issue moot since sitting presidents cannot be prosecuted. Note that is merely a Justice Department policy against indicting a sitting president. It was never tested in court. It seems to me that one could as readily argue, under the rubric of not interfering with presidential duties, that a sitting president can be indicted but the trial delayed -- or that not indicting for a serious criminal offense violates the people's rights to justice. The appeals court brings that into the picture with reference to voters' rights denied by a sitting president. Reelection might not be the pass Trump wants. Polls show a remarkable percentage of his supporters would abandon him if he is convicted. Odd that the transgressions on record aren't already enough, but I believe Smith's case will be devastating, and enough to turn the election against Trump. Interesting times: history in the making is better than movies! John Roberts must be in a brown study..
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 373 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 3:50 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 384 by Percy, posted 02-06-2024 8:01 PM | | Omnivorous has replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 375 of 871 (914877)
02-06-2024 5:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 372 by Rahvin
02-06-2024 2:35 PM
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Re: Sources Of Information
And I think they'd much prefer to just stay the hell away from it. I’m having other thoughts. I hope the Supremes take up this appeal. I want to see the legal arguments set in stone. Like the pope in the performance of his office is infallible and not open to ecclesiastic challenge, is the president, in the performance of his office, equally infallible and immune from any legal prosecution except for the impeachment powers of the congress? I want to know what this Trump-tinged SCOTUS thinks. I think we need to know where this court is. Political and legal maneuvering has taken 250 years, but the far right may have found the way to break this constitution and usurp the rule of law. Let’s find out.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by Rahvin, posted 02-06-2024 2:35 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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