Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events

Hi Doc That you can fool some of the people all of the time? It does, I cannot see that myself, where precisely? This sentence doesn’t really make sense, could you try rewording it? Well since Jesus fulfilled nothing, they probably didn’t How do you know they were written 1000 years before Jesus? It verifies that after Jesus died, some unknown writers sat down with the Hebrew Bible and made up stories about Jesus to try and make him appear as if he was the Messiah. Their thinly veiled attempts are very simple to see, you just need to be a bit less subjective. Except that it is nothing like what is in these psalms AND, how do you know the Romans did this? Evidence please. Evidence please. this contradicts my Bible. Evidence please. Yes you don’t seem to be very good at this thinking lark do you?You do know that you are living in a world of circular reasoning?It isn’t prophecy, it is circular reasoning, and redaction. Well come on over to the ‘biblical archaeology' thread and post some evidence, your fellow Christians have been letting your side down over there. Well they are good for children to read I suppose. Really, care to elaborate a little Probably a list of ill-informed regurgitated nonsense from Christian websites, owned by people who have no archaeological training an even less common sense.Why don’t you come to the biblical archaeology thread, you could learn a lot there. The first two cities you mentioned show destruction levels at vastly different times, in fact, Ai is probably the most well-known problem that ‘biblical archaeologists’ despise, there is no way to fit Ai into any reconstruction of the conquest. Jericho wasn’t even inhabited when he bible claims that there was an Exodus (both dates actually). You bee visiting Mormon sites too? Evidence please. You are not a real doc are you?

LOL! this is the first FACT that you have posted!I will reply tomorrow, it is late here and I am off to bed, LOL, I am taking a seminar at a real university Brian[This message has been edited by Brian, 10-28-2003]

I suspect that the 'Doc' is lurking, but even if he isn't I am going to reply for the benefit of others. Your writing is very poor, but I will try to decipher it anyway. You will find that a comma or two will make your text more readable. I dread to think what the grammar of your PhD thesis was like.Anyway, ‘studying’ what exactly would let me see the proof that you are on about, the collection of ancient myths that you happen to think are actually real? Since you have emphatically failed to provide one single referenced source other than the Bible for your assertions, then the logical conclusion is that you are under some kind of illusion that the Bible is accurate about anything.You clearly need to widen your reading material a lot , you are caught up in a circularity that has trapped you in a web of self-delusion, which is going to push you over the edge into insanity, no joking, the signs are already there that you are a little unstable.What has ‘plagued’ Christians for 1973 years, the failure of Jesus to do a single thing he said he would? Go moan to him, it isn’t my fault that you cannot see a con when it is staring you in the face. Still no sign of a comma anywhere, are you sure you are a doctor?
Let me educate you a little. The spiritual truths of the Bible cannot be proven true of false, they can only be affirmed or denied, These truths are taken as a matter of faith, and if you are intent on finding physical evidence for these claims, the I seriously doubt your commitment to God. Yes, I agree, but I managed to escape the Church and I am now free from all these lies and misrepresentations. I have my doubts as to whether you have the intellectual capabilities to escape your fairytale though, I wish you luck. Another baseless assertion, you have failed to present any evidence of this, will I just take your word for it?The last time I looked science still claims that insects have more than four legs, as for that unicorn.. The reason I don’t comprehend them is because it is patently untrue! You seriously need to get a hold of some decent academic books, these two-penny novels that you have been reading are sensationalist claptrap, and you think they are convincing! Is there a conspiracy theory that your website doesn’t promote?
As for comprehension, you have a cheek, you are barely literate. By ‘inane’ philosophies, I take it you are talking about Platonism and Plotinus’ Neoplatonism that the entire Christian eschatological mythology is based on? Was he singing it or just quoting it?The thing is about people of your very limited ability and severe lack of education is that you are unable to see what is wrong with your claims. Let my educate you a little more.You are claiming that Jesus said these words, and your source is the same text that you get your information from, this is circular reasoning. Broken down a little more, you are saying that the Bible records the fact that Jesus said these words and your source for ‘proving’ this is the Bible!I have been teaching at high schools for about 5 years now Doc, and I am serious when I say that your level of ability is equal to that of a 12 year old. You have absolutely no enquiry skills at all, no critical skills, and your sentence structure is diabolical.I seriously doubt that you have a PhD, unless it is one of those degree mill fakes. One thing is for certain, you really need to enlist on an ‘Introduction to the Bible’ course, you could also do with studying what history actually is, but forget archaeology, the methodologies would melt your brain, if you had one. Again, this is yet another circular argument for something that you have no proof of outside of your myths. You mean crucifixion is not a Jewish punishment, well stone me. Doc, this is Sunday school stuff, we were taught this when I was about 5 years old. The way you put this over, it sounds as if you have only recently found this out yourself! What are you talking about, who is lying and what are they lying about? Any chance that you could go wild and actually reference it, wasn’t referencing your sources a basic requirement of your ‘PhD’? There are no eyewitness reports, unless you can name some of course. BTW, the Mitchell library has information that negates the USC Library, I won’t bother pointing it out, you can find it yourself, if you are really wanting to find it. (This was probably lost on you) What is a fact, that psalms 22 was written 1000 years before Jesus was born? I am finding it difficult to follow your train of thought. But, we will go with this meaning and hope it is the correct one.You actually do not know when any of the psalms were written, that they are (or most of them are), attributed to David is only a tradition and not a fact. David more than likely is a mythological character, for all the great achievements he is given by the Bible, it speaks volumes that there is absolutely no external evidence of his existence. I know in your world that evidence is not high on the list of priorities when investigating actual historical events, but for historians it one of those little annoying things that you got to have. This is another schoolchild error you keep making. Your total lack of education in history, or a related subject, is apparent when you keep repeating the words ‘fact’ and factual’, these are not terms that are used very often by historians and archaeologists. Evidence only implies, it very rarely does more than this. I suggest that you get a dictionary and look up the word ‘fact’ and see where you are going wrong. I think the Vatican, and other ‘Churches’ have profited fairly well from your false book. These ‘facts’ would be what exactly, you still haven’t cited an external source for your ‘factual’ claims, what is the criteria your use in establishing a ‘fact’. Don’t bother answering that, I know the answer, if it is in the fairytale Bible book then it is a fact. I will refrain from the obligatory ‘DUH’. It is a bit of a bummer than that the person making the existential claim has the burden of proof, must be a real nightmare for you that. But you are not really that big on providing proof are you, do the people that you usually chat to not see how poorly educated you are? I don’t think that you know an awful lot Doc. However, you have no proof that Jesus actually said this on the cross, do you seriously think that it is impossible for someone to make this up in order to prove a point? You do know that there is a dispute over his last words? Oh he was teaching alright, and I bet he got a real fright when he realised that he wasn’t a god after all! It was a pity that he wasn’t a more honest guy and confessed his sins before he died. Is your surname McFall, (sorry Brad just joking), I have no idea what on Earth you are saying here. LOL, really, this is why he was sweating blood, he was stressed to the max, have you ever read the Bible Doc? This is getting pretty dumb Doc, who would inherently know this? That certainly counts you out, maybe you should approach this again once you have sat some introductory courses? Well if Jesus was God, why should he fear death, he cannot die if he is a God, not even for a second, what is wrong with you? Jesus fulfilled nothing in the Old Testament that relates to the Messiah, and the thing he could fulfil, could be fulfilled by countless people. Like Son of Stan you mean! LOL Yeah, let’s do that, what do you suggest? Some people do yes, but I don’t. I really do not think about God at all, the tooth fairy has more influence on my life than God does. You mean guess when you think he lived Doc, you have no proof that he lived at all, but I am familiar with the chronologies thanks. The Romans conquered David? The Romans have records of David’s birth, are you serious Doc? I think you will find that David was just a little bit before the Romans came to call. Very intellectual Doc. I don’t know, since you haven’t posted anything of any substance to support your fantasy. Where are they then? This would be? Pardon, do you mean that many today are Muslim or Islamic? Since I have taught an introduction to Islam course for four years I do know a little about Islam, including how to spell Muhammad. When did I claim this, there is ample proof that Muhammad was a real person, there is none such proof for Jesus though. Or plain dense I cannot believe that you have fallen for this; these are nothing better than von Danikenesque dramas. They are fake for goodness sakes, what is wrong with you?You have actually answered none of my questions satisfactorily. You have completely ignored the majority of my responses and now you are running away?Why don’t you be honest with yourself for once and tell us the real reason why you are saying ‘bye-bye’?I tell you what, I will do it for you. You are running away because you know that the average poster at this site is far superior than the morons that you are used to debating with. You realise that you are way out of your depth, and rather than slug it out, you up tail and run.You really should hang around Doc, you may learn something, and you might even come to like some of us.Brian.

Hi Amlodhi,Cheers, but I did stray from the path a couple of times.I see that the 'Doc's' link to his website has been edited out by him, wonder why that is?It is frustrating responding to a list of superficial assertions but it is really frustrating when it is an adult you are dealing with, why is it so difficult to see circular reasoning?In his 'personal and statement of faith' he lists his qualifications as DD AND PhD, I am wondering if this is one and the same doctorate or two different doctorates? In Scotland they are two different qualifications, maybe it is different at Doctor Bob's degree mill?He also says he has a policy of not stating where he earned his doctorate, LOL, it just has to be a degree mill, there is no way that this guy is a PhD, you can tell by his writing that he would struggle at high school level.I was hoping Doctor Bob could have hung around, but there is always that message board at his site ! LOL and he has a chatroom there too.Anyway, thank you (and others) for the support, catch you later.Brian[This message has been edited by Brian, 10-29-2003]

Hi, I think if you read the previous messages from ‘Dr.’ bob, you would understand the tone of my post. It is hardly possible to cover every single verse in the Bible is it? Your point is? Thank you for your concern, but I see just fine in the dark. If there is anything specific in my post that you wish to discuss, then I would be happy to support my opinions.Cheers.Brian.[This message has been edited Brian, 05-03-2004]

Hi,I would like to comment on this: Could you supply some historical verification for the conquest of Canaan as outlined in Josh. 1-12?Specifically:1. What date would you propose for this 'conquest' and how do you arrive at this date?2. What 'external evidence' (Albright always insisted on external evidence) do you have that there was a unified military conquest of Canaan?3. How do you harmonise the military conquest of Josh. 1-12 with Judges 1 ?Many thanks.Brian.

Thank you very much for your honesty here. There is not a possible conflict, the conflict is very real. I agree, however, the deviation on chronology is the least of the problems. Apart from the fact that these sites were not inhabited at any of the two proposed dates for the 'conquest', they do not show destruction levels that can be harmonised. Then there is the added problem of no evidence of a break in the material culture of Canaan, there is no evidence that a new element had entered Canaan, and it has never been demonstrated that any destruction level at any LBA/IA transitional period can be attributed to the Israelites. I think you need to check your dates here, the 'conquest' by Joshua would have been at least a thousand years after the dates you supply. Perhaps you mean 1400 BC and 1300 BC? I am afraid that they do. The Hebrew Bible, in Josh. 1-12, claims a unified militray conquest of Canaan. The archaeological data does not support this in any way, shape or form. If Josh. 1-12 was accurate, there should be a way to correlate destruction levels at the excavated sites in Palestine, this is not the case. The 'Conquest' theory of Israel's settlement in Palestine has been totally abandonned by Syro-Palestinian archaeologists for at least 20 years.Archaeology presents the conquest of Canaan with many more problems than Jericho and Ai. You have a major problem with Hazor and Lachish as well. Hazor was said to be taken by the Israelites in Josh.11:1-5, and they claimed to have killed Jabin the King of Hazor. Archaeologists date the destrcution of Hazor to 1250 BCE, too late for Joshua to be involved. (Dever, W. in Shanks .H., 1992 The Rise of Ancient Israel Biblical Archaeology Society, Washington. p31)Add to this the dating of the destruction of Lachish, which has now been dated, on the evidence of Ramesside scarabs, toaround 1150 BC, makes it impossible for Joshua to have destroyed these cities, unless, as Dever says jokingly he was carried out onto the battlefield on a stretcher ( ibid p32). Sure. Judges chapter 1 contradicts Josh. 1-12 as it posits a series of military action by individual tribes or several tribes acting as an alliance and not, as Josh. 1-12, a military undertaking by Israel as a whole (Weippert, M., 1971, The Settlement of the Israelite Tribes in Palestine SCM Press, London). Also, many of the sites allegedly conquered by Joshua and his armies, are mysteriously back in the hands of their original occupants in Judges 1.Cheers.Brian.

Hi Rich, It has nothing to do with the literal reading of the text, you were going on about ‘historical verification’, I could actually ignore the Bible altogether and just examine the archaeological and anthropological evidence, which would lead to the same conclusion. There was no unified military campaign across Palestine in the 13th or 14th century BC, there is no evidence whatsoever, it simply didn’t happen. Rich, trust me, you are at least a thousand years too early for Joshua, 2400 BC was one occupation period yes, but you really need to read some of the literature. If you posit a date of 2400 BC for the conquest, you have a date of around 2440 for the Exodus bang in the middle of Noah’s Flood! You also have the enslavement in Egypt way back in 2800 or so, BEFORE the Flood. You must be misreading something somewhere. You could even start with the Bible, read 1 Kings 6:1, it gives a date for the Exodus of around 1440 BCE, clearly then the Conquest of Canaan has to be later than this. It is generally accepted that the ‘conquest’ is dated to the 13th century BCE, one reason is that the Merneptah Stele, which was erected around 1205 BCE, is the FIRST mention of ‘Israel’ (if that is what it says) outside of the Bible.Another reason is because of the ten fold increase in settlements in the Palestinian hill country at the transition of the late bronze age / early iron age transition, the increase in the number of settlements was attributed by many scholars to the Israelites, however, improved techniques prove that a new element did not enter Palestine, the collapse of the system of city-states, or the settlements of pastoralists with links to these states are only two modern day explanations for these new settlements. But there was no major new influx of people into Palestine, you will not find a single modern day scholar who supports the Biblical account of the conquest of Palestine. Erosion was used as an explanation by Albright to try and counter the fact that there was no settlement at Jericho in the 14th century BCE, but erosion is not used to explain every single site that contradicts the biblical text, there are literally hundreds of archaeological surveys that you can read, you really do need to read some of them. I know, archaeology, anthropology and texts do not prove anything, what they do is to ‘imply’, Lewis Binford calls it ‘inference justification’, no historical explanations are ‘proven’, that is the nature of the discipline. However, the evidence, and it is not a lack of evidence, implies that the Bible’s version of the settlement in Palestine is hugely incorrect. For a military campaign on the scale that the Bible claims there would need to be some evidence, there isn’t. But there is evidence against the military campaign. For example, some of the sites that Joshua was said to have conquered were not occupied, some of the sites show no signs of destruction levels and the ones that do cannot be harmonised, there is no break in the material culture and no signs of any new material culture in Palestine at this time. Rich, you are using data from excavations carried out in the 20's and 50’s! These surveys are out dated, archaeology doesn’t stand still, I gave you Dever’s example from 1992. This is a feature that I notice quite a lot with the Bible lot, they use out-dated surveys and out-dated quotes to support their fantasies, I suggest you read more recent literature, I suggest you read Amnon Ben-Tor’s surveys carried out in the 1990’s.Can you give me ONE reference to a scholar who argues for a 2400 BCE Exodus and conquest? It isn’t just chronology though, it is the total absence of a new culture in Palestine. Chronology is the backbone of history, without an absolute chronology a theory cannot be tested. Most of the Bible chronologies are artificial, they follow chronological schemes rather than trying to reflect reality. Look at how Moses’ life is split into three equal groups of 40 years, life is never that well organised. I sincerely wish it was! If it was the Bible would be on the fiction shelf long ago, if any other text was as consistently incorrect or contained as many myths as the Bible does, it would be binned long ago, the Bible is the one that is given special treatment. According to Judges 1:1 the events contained within are ‘after the death of Joshua’. I quote from the KJV: Jud.1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?If it is a recount, why is the description totally different from Josh.1-12, why are these things recorded said to have happened after Joshua died?Incidentally, which text would you date as the earliest, which dates would you given to each text, and how do you conclude these? ‘Differ in context’, they are two different accounts altogether. They ‘happened’ at two different times, once when the WHOLE of Israel was led by Joshua and another time by either a single tribe or an alliances of tribes AFTER Joshua died, the Bible is quite clear about this. How can you have a sweeping conquest AND a smooth entry? Sorry, but it doesn’t. One perspective of a complete destruction under Joshua’s command, and another perspective of a smooth entry AFTER Joshua had died, interesting theory, care to support it with something a bit more substantial?Cheers.Brian.