Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events

You do, of course, realize that finding that the text of the Bible was in use and circulation at the expected time has nothing to do with proving the TRUTH of the Bible.In addition, even if most historical and geographic events mentioned in the Bible were shown to have happened or exist, it still says NOTHING about the validity any of the Religious content of the Bible.On the other hand, there are many things mentioned in the Bible that simply cannot be confirmed and in fact, can pretty conclusively be shown to have NEVER happened. One good example is the flood. There is simply no evidence anywhere that there was ever a worldwide flood, certainly not within the last few million years.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Glad you found your way home.Actually, there were many, many known and documented floods.So I don't doubt that whoever wrote that section of the Bible was familiar with flood stories. In addition, there are so many similarities with several of the other and older Flood Myths that it's very likely taken directly from one of them.But the big problem with the Flood and ARK story is that absolutely no part of it can stand up to any reasonable examination. No part of it.For me, the value to the Flood Myth is that it was a beautiful, simple story that would appeal to a pastoral community with parts that could be acted out by children to help instill a feeling of belonging and also pass on a political and social message.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

RichI certainly see you as reasonable, at least so far, so let's give it a try.Instead of running through a whole bunch of ponderables, is it okay to do one at a time?I think we've covered the issue of a universal flood so I'll skip that one.What about the claim in the story about what animals were brought aboard?A few questions.

• Could Noah have even been able to gather samples of all animals?
• If possible, were there enough people on board to feed, treat, and care for all the animals?
• Since many animals are limited to method or speed of travel, after the ARK came aground, could they have dispersed to all parts of the globe.
• If you believe they could disperse, why did certain species only travel to certain places?
• If they traveled only to certain places, why is there no evidence of those journeys (takes a long time for a playtapus to get to Australia)

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

RichI think the key point, at least for me, is that the Flood and Noah's ARK simply NEVER happened, even on a much smaller scale. Even if you allow every single fact mentioned in the story to be modified, it still will not stand up.But that is only part of it.If it turns out that every geographic location, every city and town, every ruler, every battle mentioned in the Bible is real, that still says absolutely nothing about the validity of the religious message.If it could be shown that Jerico existed (as it has) and that the walls were torn down (not once but many, many times) and that the walls got torn down about the time Joshua (or even at exactly the time) was there, it still adds no credence to the tale of supernatural intevention.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, no. If you could prove that the Exodus happened, it would show that the Exodus happened. That's it. That's all. Nothing more. No divine intervention.For the issue of the parting of the Red Sea to stand up as divine intervention you would first have to show that

• there was one Exodus
• that it happened when the Bible said it did
• that they got from one side to the other by walking across the bottom between two colums of water
• that for some unfathomable reason, the Egyptians would chase them instead of just using the border troops that were readily available
• that the Egyptians would follow them down between the columns of water instead of simply asking the troops that were stationed on the otherside to simply stop them
• that the walls of water collapsed
• that the Egyptions then simply went home and dried off

It's a fable, a morality play. It was meant to instruct and to help keep the people together. That's all.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sorry you feel that way.But I think you miss the point.If all that you allege happens to be true, if you could show that the Exodus actually happened, it still does not show any divine intervention.That is the point.I will freely accept any statement that the Exodus happened simply because it doesn't matter. That a mass of Jews left Egypt? Okay. That they crossed the Red Sea? Okay.But that still does nothing to show divine intervention.I looked back through the thread though and could find no referneces to any evidence supporting the Exodus. But as I said, even if it were there, it would not support the Bible as a literal book.If it will make you feel any better, I'll try to find some referneces to the fortifications that were built along borders.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, I can't go back too far but I certainly studied about the Hittites when I was in high school. So I don't see why you say people disputed them.But again, you have made no real points.The fact that places or even people that might have really existed (although some, such as Moses are certainly questionable) does not imply that real history is included.Have you ever read a novel that mentions people or places? The fact that those people or places existed does not imply that the story is factual.The problem with the Bible as History is that so many things it relates as having happened, simply did not. Others are so questionable that it is fairly certain that if they did happen, they did not happen as described in the Bible.Troy is mentioned in the Iliad. Troy exists. Apolo came down and for nine days shot first the mules and hounds, but later the people themselves. History?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The Creation Myth in Genesis is, well, a myth at best.Well, the world-wide flood never happened.The Noah story is, at best, a gross exageration of a minor event. The Ark and the animals simply didn't happen as stated.It looks like the battle of Jerico, if it happened, did not happen when the Bible seems to say it did.The Exodus, if it happened, were at least one or two orders of magnitude smaller than the Bible seems to say.Those will do for starters.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Would you prefer the term Fiction?If so, I will modify what was said in post 162 of this thread to read..."The Creation Fiction in Genesis is, well, a Fiction at best."All beter now?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But it most certainly is. There are supernatural characters, anthropomorphic critters and all the traits of a good fiction.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

certainly. There are Anthropomorphic critters, supernatural beings, a story line, sudden creations, and even a love interest for the purient.But the point is not whether it is called, myth, fiction, fable, saga, tale or story.The point is that there are enough historic events named in the bible that simply did not happen, did not happen as stated or did not happen when stated, that the Bible can not be relied on as a historical reference.That does not mean there is no historical value to the Bible. It does mean though that those instances where it is obviously wrong (for example the Creation (insert your prefered term) or the flood, or the tale of Noah and the Ark must be discounted.It means that the timelines, when seemingly wrong (Jerico) must be questioned.It means that the events that are totally uncorroborated like the Exodus story must be set aside as only tales until some additional information is found that might provide independant confirmation.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

pointing towards the folk over at AIG. There is little there that most folk here haven't read and laughed about.But there is no evidence there of a world wide flood. And as to how sediment gets from below sea level to the tops of the highest mountains, you'll have a VERY hard time convincing someone who's been through a couple earthquakes that it is not from the mountains being shoved up.There is a whole thread, several in fact, dealing with the Exodus myth. TThere is even a section on the flood myth so wander over there.But there is no evidence at AIG. And so far, no one has brought any information to support either the flood or the silly Noah story, but feel free to give it a try in the appropriate thread or forum.But back on topic, I repeat, there are just to many historical incidents in the Bible that are simply wrong to place any trust in it without lots of outside corroboration.If you can provide some, we wouold all like to see it.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

SteveDo you really not understand? You do not Prove a negative. The proof that the flood never happened is that there is NO EVIDENCE THAT IT DID HAPPEN.The way it works is that if you make and assertion such as "There was a world-wide flood" you MUST present evidence that it did happen.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You are right. The change from sediment to sedimentary rock takes time. It has taken millions of years. What's to prove. There has been thousands of millions of years for it to happen.You ask... and the answer is that so far you have provided NO evidence.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

SteveYou made an assertion. The assertion is that there was a global flood. That is simply an assertion until you can present something to support the assertion.When you have some evidence that there was a flood, bring it here. Then we can go on.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion