Is man inherently good or inherently evil?

riVeRraT responds to me:

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But Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophecies. He was supposed to be a warlord who would cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation.

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Like God, he left it up to us.

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Non sequitur.You cannot "leave it up to us" if Jesus is supposed to fulfill the prophecy. If Jesus is supposed to be the one to do thus-and-so, then if somebody else does it, Jesus didn't do it. And if it is the sign of the Messiah upon the person who does thus-and-so and it isn't Jesus, then Jesus is not the Messiah.The Messiah was supposed to be a warlord who would directly and physically cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation. Jesus didn't do that. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah.

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Congratulations, riVeRraT. You just said that all Jews are idiots.

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You really need to learn how to stop insulting people.

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Isn't this like leading the witness or something?

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I have no control over your posts. It isn't like I can make you type something you don't want to type. If you don't want to imply that Jews are fools for not recognizing that Jesus is the Messiah, then perhaps you should stop treating them as if they are.That requires acknowledging their point of view and considering it to be valid...something you seem to be unwilling to do.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to me:

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That Jesus exists "in" His followers. The Spirit of God is not a mere I.P.U. fancy dreamed up by desperate losers.

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Congratulations, Phatboy. You've just said that anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus is a "desperate loser."Every other religion out there makes the exact same claim, Phatboy. Why are we to trust you over them?

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People who think godliness unrelated to goodliness might also want to consider: Who most often adopts children? Who sponsors the nation's food pantries and soup kitchens? Who first took medicine into the Third World and opened hospitals? Who sheltered orphans? Who spread literacy and established schools and universities? And who led movements to abolish the slave trade, end apartheid, and establish civil rights?

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(*chuckle*)The most prestigious hospital in the country, Johns-Hopkins, was founded specifically to get away from the religiously motivated medical systems that had been established. They wanted a place where people could come to receive medical treatment without the religious overtones.Oh, and then there's Doctors Without Borders...determinedly non-religious. And despite what the Republicans say, they do not finance their operation through trafficking in organs. But, I'm hardly surprised to see a bunch of religious fanatics say such a thing about a non-religious organization that does better work than they do.Surely you aren't going to trot out the stupid question of, "Where are the atheist hospitals?" are you? Considering that 98% of the country believes in god and since atheists have no motivation to get together in organized groups, why on earth would anybody expect to find the great atheist monoliths the way you do the religious ones?

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Yet the accumulating evidence indicates that faith often tethers self-interest and nurtures character. Godliness and goodliness are more than typographically linked.

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Yes, but in a negative correlation. The religious are more likely to commit crimes and do evil than the atheist.

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Faith is more than wishful thinking.

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Except that atheists do the exact same thing. The thing you are missing is that all of those delinquents still believed in god. People in prison are much more likely to be religious than atheist.It is not faith, it is will. You can get will through lots of places, but faith is not the only nor the best source.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to me:

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The religious are more likely to commit crimes and do evil than the atheist.

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Interesting statistic. Where did you find it?

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Federal Bureau of Prisons. According to them, only about 0.2% of prisoners are atheist. This is in comparison to the approximately 2% of the population that are atheists.

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You can get will through lots of places, but faith is not the only nor the best source.

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So what would be the best source, in your opinion?

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No idea. I don't have nearly enough information about human psychology to make such a statement.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Congradulations, you have just called all Jews who follow Jesus idiots.

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(*chuckle*)Jews for Jesus is a Chistian organization. They aren't Jews...they're Baptists. It was founded in 1973 by Martin Rosen, a Baptist minister. Their official mission statement is "to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide." They certainly claim that they're missionaries are Jewish, but analysis of those missionaries shows that they are only married to Jews or can only trace a Jewish lineage through their father's line...which means they aren't Jewish. In other words, they lie.In other words, they're a bunch of lying Christians out to forcibly convert Jews.Try again.

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Way to go! Condemn me to hell! That's really respectful. I can feel the love all the way from here. You've seen this before. Say it with me:

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Demise does not equal Hell.

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Don't insult my intelligence, riVeRraT. We all know what you meant.If you really didn't mean it, then bless us with your wisdom and tell us what you really meant. If my supposed opinion that I am "greater than" you will be my demise, what does that mean, specifically? What is our relationship such that you will come to have some sort of power over me?

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How on earth is that showing any sign of respect to someone else?

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Um no.

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Thank you for agreeing with me that it is not respectful.Now, stop it.

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Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Like I said before, and God wrote that with his hand?

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And as I responded to you before, if the Bible cannot be trusted to be an accurate reflection of god, how can we trust any of it? If this verse isn't true, what gives us confidence that any other verse is?

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Then its not judging if I say it will be your demise.

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Yes, it is! You seem to think that you have a direct line to god and know what will be done. That somehow my actions will cause disfavor in the eyes of god and cause my "demise." Who are you to tell god what to do? Whether or not something will be my demise is beyond you as you are not the one that gets to make that decision.Unless you are the one that is the cause of the demise, it is a judgement call to say that it will be.So if you didn't mean I'm going to hell, then please explain how you are going to gain power over me such that you will be the direct cause of my demise.In other words, riVeRraT, if it isn't a judgement, it's a threat. Do I need to call the police?

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I wasn't the one making the claim, riVeRraT. You were. You were the one that said that if people do things outside of doing it for god, they're doing it for themselves.

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That sounds like selfishness to me.

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There is only one path to righteousness.

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Congratulations, riVeRraT. You just condemned everybody who doesn't believe in your god to hell.You don't know when to quit, do you?

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I certainly have you pegged. You've already apologized to me once.

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So this is how you judge others?

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Yep. I don't condemn anybody to hell the way some people do.

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Pascal's Wager.

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Incorrect. Pascal's Wager is the (false) philosophical claim that one should believe in god (specifically, the Catholic god). The idea is that if there is no god, then those who believe have lost nothing even though they gain nothing, either. But if there is a god, those who don't believe lose everything as they will be condemned to hell. Therefore, from a supposedly "pure mathematical" stance, one should believe in god since it results in no loss for infinite gain.It is false, of course, because it assumes only one god, that we know who that god is, and that we understand the intentions of that god. It also ignores the cost of faith should there be no god.But notice the kicker: Condemnation to hell.Were did I even hint that you were going to hell, riVeRraT?

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You've already had to apologize to me once.

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No I haven't

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Oh, for crying out loud. Do I need to go through every single one of your posts to find it? We had this conversation before where I dressed you down about your insulting behaviour and you eventually said that yes, you had insulted me, you didn't mean it, you were sorry you had done it, and you apologized.Fortunately, I did learn (a little bit) from the last time and I saved the quote for which you apologized: Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread: Remember it now? Here, let me remind you of the apology you made a hundred posts later: Message 251 of the "Religion in Government" thread: Now, do you really want me to post all of the other quotes of yours I have collected where we find you judging people and condemning them to hell?Some may consider this to be indicative of me having a vendetta against you but it's more that you seem to have the attention span of a gnat and can't even remember what you yourself said moments ago. Rather than try to have to reconstruct everything from scratch each time you make this blunder, I have decided to simply collect them to make it easier.

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What are you going to say to God about your sins?

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What are you going to say to God about your sins?

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What will you say?

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRrat responds to me:

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physicall

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It says that?

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Now, since riVeRraT seems to be incapable of providing context, let me provide the full quote of what I said: And to answer the question, yes. Micah 5. And in case you claim that Micah 5 isn't about Jesus (which makes you wonder who its about because it didn't happen...not to mention that Matthew 2 claims that it is about Jesus), there's always Zecharaih that both Matthew 21 and John 12 claim is about Jesus. Of course, they only refer to verse 9:9 since to go beyond that would mean that Jesus is a warlord as seen by the full set of verses:Zechariah 9:9: Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.9:10: And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.9:11: As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.9:12: Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;9:13: When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.9:14: And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.9:15: The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.9:16: And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.9:17: For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maidsNow, this leaves one wondering why I know the Bible better than someone who has faith in it?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy asks of me:

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Do you think that humans are basically and inherently "good"?

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Without definitions of "good" and "evil" to go off of, I cannot answer that question. And, of course, that requires examination of where the definitions came from.

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What is the source of our standard?

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All I can talk about is what people actually do and the reality is that people are the source of the standard. Even people who claim that their standard comes from god will show that they make up the rules as they go along when examined.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to me:

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I'm guessing that you would get "will" through information.

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No, you get knowledge from information.

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Faith is a quest for knowledge. Is that how you think?

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No, curiosity is a quest for knowledge.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

ramoss writes:

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Jesus is irrelavent to the Jews.

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Well, I wouldn't say he's irrelevant, but he certainly does not mean nearly what he means to Christians. As Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon said, Jesus (and Mohammed) "served to clear the way for the King Messiah to prepare the whole world to worship God with one accord, as it is written 'For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they all call upon the name of the Lord to serve Him with one consent.' (Zephaniah 3:9)."To Judaism, Jesus was a prophet, one who directly contradicted Jewish law by claiming to be god (which the Messiah is not, according to Jewish tradition), and absolutely failed in fulfilling any prophecies of the Messiah, especially by being crucified at the hands of the Romans. According to Judaism, there is no concept of the Messiah dying and being resurrected.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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In other words, they're a bunch of lying Christians out to forcibly convert Jews.

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Great, now they are liars. Whats next?

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Dunno. Hopefully, you won't put your faith in them.

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Don't insult my intelligence, riVeRraT. We all know what you meant.

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NO, you think you know what I meant. What I meant is what I said, something you may not be familiar with.

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Then say it, already! Don't keep us in suspense! If you didn't mean what I thought meant, what did you actually mean? Rephrase your statement in a different way such that it means the same thing but does not use the same words.

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It is not the power I have over you, it is the exact opposite.

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Please explain how I have power over you. I don't know you. Up until recently, you didn't even put any information in your profile. What possible sort of power do I have over you?

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I made it very clear to you, SEVERAL times that I do not condem people to hell

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That's not what you said when you apologize for condemning me to hell.Let's take a look at what you have said, shall we?riVeRraT says gay people are sinning: Message 212 of "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 186 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread, in response to comments about gay dolphins: Message 137 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Same message: riVeRraT judges others: Message 188 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 137 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 217 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 28 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 29 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 40 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 88 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 149 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 152 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread (and I love this one because this is your entire post): Message 157 of the "Religion in Government" thread: Enough of that thread. Message 157 of the "Religion in Government" thread: I think that's enough.You've done nothing but judge people from the moment you got here.Oh, what the hell. One last one: Message 166 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Telling somebody he's going to go to hell isn't exactly a non-judgemental act. Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread: Alas, riVeRraT, you can claim that you don't condemn people to hell, but your words betray you. You do it all the time.

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I only judge them if it is in a good way.

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But according to your own book, you are in absolutely no position to judge. The moment you do, you are condemned to the same judgement. No, the Bible does not say that you will be examined to see if you made the same mistake and if you didn't then you will receive no punishment. It says that if you judge someone, that same judgement happens to you. Condemn someone to hell for whatever sin and you will also go to hell whether you committed that sin or not.You are not allowed to judge anythig, riVeRraT. That is god's job and he allows nobody to take it from him.

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And as I responded to you before, if the Bible cannot be trusted to be an accurate reflection of god, how can we trust any of it? If this verse isn't true, what gives us confidence that any other verse is?

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Listen, your the one who doesn't believe the bible, not me.

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Irrelevant. You're the one who asked where in the Bible it says that god creates evil. You were shown where it does and your response boiled down to, "Well, god didn't actually say that."If you're going to cherrypick which verses of the Bible you're going to believe, perhaps you would be kind enough to give us this expurgated version you're using. Otherwise, we'll simply use the text that currently exists.

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If the bible is not right, then stop using it to prove things rhain, plain and simple.

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(*chuckle*)You really don't get it, do you? I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the Bible. You are. Therefore, it is perfectly logical to show you where the Bible disagrees with you. If you don't like your own text being used against you, perhaps you should dump it.

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Isiah 45:7 doesn not mean that he makes evil just for the sake of making evil.

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Yes, it does, but that's irrelevant. Why god creates evil is irrelevant to the question of whether or not god creates evil.

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If someone was murdering someone you love, and God came down and did evil to them, by killing the perpetrator on the spot. would you consider this good or evil?

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Oh, heaven help me. The ends justifies the means? That just compounds the evil! The ends never justify the means.

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Funny how you think I have a direct line to God though, was it something I said?

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Yep. See above. Remember the one you apologized to me for? Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread: So you tell me. You apologized for your act of speaking for god. What does that say of you thinking you can speak for god?

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Do you feel threatened?

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You're the one who keeps threatening me. You tell me.

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Incorrect. Pascal's Wager is the (false) philosophical claim that one should believe in god (specifically, the Catholic god). The idea is that if there is no god, then those who believe have lost nothing even though they gain nothing, either. But if there is a god, those who don't believe lose everything as they will be condemned to hell. Therefore, from a supposedly "pure mathematical" stance, one should believe in god since it results in no loss for infinite gain.

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No rhain, you cannot use mathematics to solve this one. Its not binary.

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Nice try, riVeRraT, but that's my point to you. You are the one who keeps on saying that if people don't follow your religious theology, we're going to hell.That boils down to Pascal's Wager which is false. What do you think I meant when I said "false"? Is that the word of someone who agrees with something or the word of someone who disagrees?Indeed, Pascal was trying to make a mathematical argument about belief in god. He was in error.Now, how does "He was in error" mean that I think he was right?

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This will be part of your demise, your binary way of thinking is going to let you down in a big way one day, I know this.

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

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IF we communicate 10,000 words to each other and you or I forget one, it doesn't make one or the other invalid.

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It isn't just one, riVeRraT. Nearly two dozen that I in only a half-hearted effort to collect have culled alone. This isn't a single instance of you misspeaking yourself. This is a consistent, repetitive behaviour of yours. Anybody who disagrees with your religious philosophy is a sinner doomed to hell.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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In his classic fashion of translating what someone says to fit his needs at the moment, he thinks that speaking peace to heathen means he will be a warlord.

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(*sigh*)Keep reading. You, just like those who wrote the New Testament, seem to forget that you need to read the entire passage in order to understand what is being said.Zechariah 9:11: As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.9:12: Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;9:13: When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.9:14: And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.9:15: The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.You will note that Matthew 21 seems to want to stop at Zech 9:9:Matthew 21:4: All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,21:5: Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.And, indeed, that's what Zechariah 9:9 says:Zechariah 9:9: Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.But it is clear that that is not the extent of the prophecy of the Messiah. It is not sufficient to simply go riding on a particular beast. It's what is done after that which is important. Zechariah is talking about a warlord that will unite the nations.Or do you have some other interpretation of what "they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones" means? Are you trying to say that "filled the bow with Ephraim" means something other than shooting people with arrows?

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His dominion is currently from sea even to sea

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Incorrect. The world is still fractured. We do not live united under Jewish law. That is the sign of the Messiah.

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I never claimed to know the bible better than anyone. I haven't even read the whole thing yet.

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You haven't read the book and you have the gall to tell others what it says?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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Ok, then why are many Jews converting to Christ?

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They're not. Christianity is actually a dwindling religion.

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Jews for Jesus?

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Doesn't have any Jews in it. They're Baptists. They claim to be Jewish, but they lie.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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Not if Jesus is the Messiah.

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But Jesus cannot be the Messiah. He claimed to be god the Messiah is not god. The Messiah does not die and then get resurrected.Do you know anything about what Jewish eschatology says about the Messiah?

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I am wrong?

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Yes.The reason why Jews do not consider Jesus to be the Messiah is because he couldn't have been. The later Christians changed the rules about what the Messiah was supposed to be in order to fit Jesus into the mold.For example, there is no concept of death and resurrection in the Jewish tradition concerning the Messiah. Where on earth did that come from as it is not a Jewish thing.

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I also understand the Jews get a second chance right, is that what you mean?

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Second chance? What on earth are you talking about? There is no hell in Judaism. Everybody eventually goes to heaven.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Wow, what a waste of time, whew.

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(*chuckle*)Two second to cut-and-paste. I didn't realize that you held your own viewpoints in such contempt. Your own views are a waste of time.Hey, you said it. Not me.

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Quick question, if the bible says your going to hell if you do XYZ, and I point that out, but actually do not accuse you of doing XYZ, who is condemning who to hell?

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I'll answer that the first time it happens. As it is, you don't quote the Bible and you certainly never refer to god-sponsored actions outside of actual people whom you are threatening with hell.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

AdminNosy responds to me:

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Doesn't have any Jews in it. They're Baptists. They claim to be Jewish, but they lie.

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To put this one to bed it would be a good time for you to back this assertion up.

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I thought I already had. I pointed out that Jews for Jesus was founded by a Baptist minister.From Wikipedia's article on Jews for Jesus: What else needs to be shown that they are a Christian group? If the Jews, themselves, reject "Jews for Jesus" as not Jewish but rather Christian, what else needs to be said?For crying out loud, they're part of Christian organizations. What more do you need?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Of course the Jews are going to reject it. Just Silly rhain.

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Hmmm...A Baptist minister claims to be a Jew and that's "silly"?That's not silly. That's ridiculous. And the fact that you seem to think that it's legitimate only makes it worse.And congratulations, riVeRraT. You just declared all Jews to be idiots who don't know their own religion and need Christians to tell them.Seriously, riVeRraT: Who gets to be the final arbiter on who is or is not a Jew: Jews or Baptists?

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In your own link you posted it cleary sates that many of them were in fact once Jewish.

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Incorrect.My own link clearly states that they NEVER WERE JEWISH. This is not a question of "converting to Christianity." This is a question of someone who is not Jewish and never was Jewish claiming to be Jewish.If your father and only your father is Jewish, then you're not a Jew. It's that simple. What makes you a Jew is whether or not your mother is a Jew.

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Your links quote:

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According to its Executive Director, Jews for Jesus has many non-Jews in administrative and staff positions but deploys "only front-line missionaries who are Jewish or married to Jews."

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That doesn't sound like "not any Jews".

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(*sigh*)What part of "They are lying" don't you understand? As the article points out, this claim of Jewishness is only from being married to a Jew or having a paternal lineage to a Jew.Neither of those qualities makes one Jewish and anybody who claims they are a Jew because of them is lying to you.

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Plus I know one first hand.

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And I'm supposed to believe you because of what, precisely?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!