The Inerrancy of the Bible

The taunt in Isaiah 14 is not a prophecy. It is a poem taunting the king of Babylon. Nothing in the taunt refers to the Devil because they didn't believe in the Devil.The question at the end of chapter 14 has nothing to do with the word we are discussing.You have not shown me any evidence that the Hebrew word translated as Lucifer (which Christians say is the Devil) is an accurate translation. I have shown you that it is an inaccurate translation.Jewish beliefs do not support the KJV translation.
Hebrew translations do not support the KJV translation.
The meaning of "lucifer" when Jerome used it supports the Jewish translation, which does not refer to the Devil, but does not support the current Christian meaning of Lucifer.Revelation has nothing to do with Isaiah 14.Lucifer with a meaning of Satan or Devil is not an accurate translation for the Hebrew word "helel."

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Beetles have 6 legs, none of which are specific for leaping.

Crashfrog, I agree, the beetle is not a clean creature because it has not two legs for leaping withal. The translators errored but the underlying texts confirm a different kind of locust.I doubt the translators were all into claudistic similarities, if they were likely the cricket is the more correct interpretation of this root hebrew word. If the hebrew root word supported the beetle then that would of been evidence that the bible is not inerrant.This message has been edited by Tom, 01-15-2005 13:49 AM

If What does this mean?? This message has been edited by NosyNed, 01-15-2005 13:51 AM

So what you're saying is, the only inerrant Bible is the one none of us can read. What the hell good is that?

Crashfrog, You don't have to read it to get saved. I agree its Gods Words. This does not mean the Words of the Lord are not inerrant, however its because the wise men rejecting the word of the Lord (kjv Jer 8:9) that it pleased God that by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (kjv 1Co 1:21.kjv 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.kjv Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?kjv Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.kjv Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilledThis message has been edited by Tom, 01-15-2005 20:32 AM

ok, let's break down the 14th chapter of isaiah. let's start with the opening prophesy.

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Isaiah 14

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But the LORD will pardon Jacob, and will again choose Israel, and will settle them on their own soil. And strangers shall join them and shall cleave to the House of Jacob. For the peoples shall take them and bring them to their homeland; and the House of Israel shall possess them as slaves and haindmaidens on the soil of the LORD. They shall be captors of their captors and masters of their taskmasters.

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basically, he's saying things are gonna turn around, and israel will exile babylon, and make slaves of them. anything about the devil here?

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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And when the LORD has given you rest from your sorrow and trouble, and from the hard service that you were made to serve, you shall recite this song of scorn over the king of Babylon:

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so when this happens, the israelites are to add insult to injury and MOCK the king of babylon with the son that follows, directed at the king of babylon. not the devil.

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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How is the taskmaster vanished,
How is the oppression ended!
The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
The rod of the tyrants,
That smote the people in wrath
With stroke unceasing,
That belabored nations in fury
In relentless pursuit.

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yay, we're saved! sound like they're talking about the devil here?

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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All the earth is calm, untroubled;
Loudly it cheers.
Even pines rejoice your fate,
And the cedars of Lebanon;
"Now that you have lain down,
None shall come up to fell us."

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does the devil cut down trees? or conquer the entire known world?

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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Sheol down below was astir
To greet your coming--
Rousing for you the shades
Of all the earth's chieftains,
Raising from their thrones
All the kings of nations.
All speak up and say to you,
"So you have been stricken as we were,
You have become like us!
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the strains of your lutes!
Worms are to be your bed,
Maggots your blanket!"

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Sheol is the hebrew underworld, like Hades. everyone goes there, the good, the bad. KJV renders this "grave" but it is the origin of the word "Hell." however, this does not seem to indicate lakes of fire, does it? instead, decaying, rotting, death. worms and maggots. this passage is the response of the kings he [the king of babylon] has killed in his conquests to his own death.

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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How are you fallen from heaven,
O Shining One, son of the Dawn!
How are you felled to earth,
O vanquisher of nations!

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ah, the important part. look this in the context of the rest of the passages you've just read. they're saying the god-king of babylon has been proven to be mortal. it's no coincidence with the word "felled" there, it's in reference to the trees earlier. now it is HE who is cut down. notice also it says "vanquisher of nations!" does the devil vanquish nations? does he invade, and exile civilizations? no, but babylon DOES. keep reading

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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Once you thought in your heart,
"I will climb to the sky;
Higher than the stars of God
I will set my throne.
I will sit in the mount of assembly,
On the summit of Zaphon: [ie: mt Zion]
I will mount the back of a cloud --
I will match the Most High."

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figuratively, it's the king of babylon ruling over the israelite religion, a big no-no for them. i sure you can find a lot of this kind of stuff in the bible. however, i think it's a reference to this:

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"I have completed its magnificence with silver, gold, other metals, stone, enameled bricks, fir and pine. The first which is the house of the earth’s base, the most ancient monument of Babylon; I built and finished it. I have highly exalted its head with bricks covered with copper. We say for the other, that is, this edifice, the house of the seven lights of the earth, the most ancient monument of Borsippa. A former king built it, (they reckon 42 ages) but he did not complete its head. Since a remote time, people had abandoned it, without order expressing their words. Since that time the earthquake and the thunder had dispersed the sun-dried clay. The bricks of the casing had been split, and the earth of the interior had been scattered in heaps. Merodach, the great god, excited my mind to repair this building. I did not change the site nor did I take away the foundation. In a fortunate month, in an auspicious day, I undertook to build porticoes around the crude brick masses, and the casing of burnt bricks. I adapted the circuits, I put the inscription of my name in the Kitir of the portico. I set my hand to finish it. And to exalt its head. As it had been in ancient days, so I exalted its summit."

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King Nebuchadnezzar, c. 605 B.C.

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the unfinished ancient monument is believed to be the biblical tower of babel. nebuchadnezzar rebuilt it, and finished it around the time the hebrews came to babylon. it's probable that isaiah would have known of it, and might have even taken the height as an insult the their god somehow, since the authors of genesis seemed to as well. (imagine how he'd take the empire state building?)

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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Instead, you are brought down to Sheol,
To the bottom of the Pit.

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there's his fall: death. the bottom seems to indicate that he is not given a proper burial, punished by dishonorment in death. remember, this is not hell, this is "the grave" or the underworld.

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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They who behold you stare;
They peer at you closely:
"Is this the man
Who shook the earth,
Who made realms tremble,
Who made the world a waste
And wrecked its towns,
Who never released his prisoners to their homes?"

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are they talking about the devil? see that word? MAN. this is a man who waged war on the entire known world, and who held israel captive. his sin is that of pride, thinking himself higher than the god of israel. it may well be the origin of the devil story. but read this verse again and tell me if the devil is a man who conquered the earth.

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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All the kings of nations
Were laid, every one, in honor.
Each in his tomb;
While you were left lying unburied,
Like loathsome carrion.

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what did i say about proper burial? he's left for the flies. does the devil need to be buried? is he left like a dead animal?

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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Like a trampled corpse
[In] the clothing of slain gashed by sword
Who sink to the very stones of the Pit.
You shall not have a burial like them;
Because you destroyed your country,
Murdered your people.

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he's not even given the burial of a soldier, in a mass grave, because he pissed off the god of israel, bringing harm to his people.

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Isaiah 14 (continued)

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Let the breed of evildoers
Nevermore be named!
Prepare a slaughtering block for his sons
Because of the guilt of their father.
Let them not arise to posses the earth!
Then the world's face shall be covered with towns.

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so they're gonna kill off his family, his entire line. does the devil have a son, let alone sons? would you need to kill his sons? do these sons pose a threat to population of the world?this who section is CLEARLY talking about the king of babylon, probably nebuchadnezzar in particular. it cannot be talking about the devil. the song is not prophesy, the opening prose is. the song is what the israelites were supposed to scorn the king of babylon with, upon the fulfilment of the prophesy.i've already explained the translation issue. notice this translation doesn;t even use "lucifer?" it uses "shining one" which is the literal rendering of the name "heylel." i've also seen it rendered "day star" or "morning star."moreover, even should we use the name lucifer, there is no indication that this name applies to ANYTHING but a man. this is the only verse it's used in, and the context is clearly the king of babylon, a mortal human being.

It all still doesn't matter.. the census described in Luke is STILL mutually exclusive with the reign of Herod the King.ALl those pieces of speculation about who was govenor when does not answer the fact that until Herod was dead, and his sons no longer ruled, Ceasar Augustus did not have the authority to order a census in Judah.How about answering that point.

By "inherently correct" you mean a "total invention lacking any supporting evidence and contrary to known fact". As a member of the Patrician class Quirinius could not be Procurator at all. And Martin has no evidence placing him in Judaea in 2BC.
And of coure the 2BC date contradicts Matthew (Herod is dead) and Luke (the oath is neither a census nor held for tax purposes).

Arachnophilia, My Hebrew concordance does make reference to both the king of Babylon and Satan. I've already agreed with purpledawn that I can accept it figuratively. This means I can accept definition (1a). but is not satan the light of the religion of the Muslims today as back when they took Israel into bondage. God has made it clear that this is why the Palestine should not rejoice because of satan causing the present strife over Palestine. I agree in advance that this is why the muslims are blowing themselves up, is to fullfill the prophecy about cutting themselves into pieces over Jerusalem. It will come to naught because the messsage is that the Lord shall choose Israel (kjv Isaiah 14:1), and that the poor that put their trust in Zion. kjv (Isaiah 14:32). I agree that Israel has been rerooted within the promised lands, that there being there is a fullfillment of kjv Isa 14:1. I suppose one could take this figuratively that it included the king of babylon but see that its more of a prophesy to Satan being cast into the pit for the thousand years. kjv rev 20:1-3 & kjv Rev 20:10 to join the the king of Babylon later. kjv rev 21:8. Notice it says that he will break the Assyrian in his land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot. Is this not just another prophecy about the present state of Israel. This sounds like the covenant given to Abrahams wife Sarah that Isaac's seed would inherit this land, and in Isaiah saying who shall disannul it? Is the palestinian this cockatrice and the suicide bombings the fruit (reward)(poison) of the fiery flying serpent? Is Babylon the serpents root of this flying fiery serpent to in respect to the whole of Palestine. Is not the problem in palestine today show reason of why not to rejoice that the king of babylon rod was broken. Is not this showing that the entire chapter of Isaiah 14 is about Israel even extending to present day time. That even though the Lord broke the rod of their oppressors that they were not to rejoice in this taunting. What is the message to Zion? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. I hope you see that the first verse and the last verse in Isaiah chapter 14. Is basically saying that the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor can put their trust in this.

PaulK, I read it as given the silver jubilee both varus and Saturnius would of likely of been present at the jubilee and find it interesting that there is no record that either Saturninus or Varus being in Syria during the time of Lukes taxation event. It appears you have to have documentation that Varus or Saturnius was present on Sept 29th 2 B.C. It does appear that Quirinius was the acting governor, so that Varus and Saturninus presense could be present at Augusta Caesars Silver Jubilee.Given the lack of evidence Varus or Saturnius was present in Syria around Sept 29th 2 B.C. you need to look to John the Baptists birth as he being approximately 6 months older than the Lord Jesus, based off Augusta Caesars death and Tiberius Caesar reigning for 15 years to the point in time that John the Baptist began his ministry. This places the Lords birth around 2 B.C. in Herod the Great King of Judahs reign. kjv Luke 3:1-8 http://www.gods-kingdom.org/when_really_was_jesus_born.htm...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal. - Adminnemooseus}Saturninus
4 B.C. to 2 B.C.Varus
2 B.C. to 1 A.D.However, there was one year in which it was possible that Quirinius could have been a lieutenant governor of Syria. It was the summer of 2 B.C. between Saturninus and the second governorship of Varus.Historical records show that Saturninus was still in Syria in May of 2 B.C. Then there is a historical gap in the records until November, when we first read of Varus being in Syria. We do not know what happened in the six months from May to November of 2 B.C. However, we do know that Quirinius was Caesar’s specialist in the area of enrollment and taxation. We also know that Quirinius had been sent to Syria and Palestine at the time of Jesus’ birth with the title of procurator. (See Justin Martyr’s First Apology, chapter 34.)This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-16-2005 13:04 AM

WHICH IS TWO YEARS AFTER FREAKIN' HEROD IS FREAKIN' DEAD AND BURIED DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!

Ah, but what calendar are you using? ROFLMAO!!Brian.

ramoss, The dates of the Eclipse's place Herods death at 1 B.C. in late January after his killing a high priest called Matthias on Jan 9 1 B.C. This places the Lords birth being in the autumn of 2.B.C. http://www.gods-kingdom.org/when_really_was_jesus_born.htm...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal. - Adminnemooseus}The True Date of the EclipseThere is a book in good research libraries entitled Solar and Lunar Eclipses of the Ancient Near East from 3000 B.C. to 0 with Maps, by Manfred Kudlek and Erich H. Mickler. It lists the dates of all lunar and solar eclipses visible from Jerusalem in the years before the Christian era. The particular lunar eclipses that are of interest to us in our study are listed on page 156 of that book:August 3,
9 B.C.Nov. 28,
9 B.C.Nov. 18,
8 B.C.March 23,
5 B.C.Sept. 15,
5 B.C.March 13,
4 B.C.July 17,
2 B.C.January 9,
1 B.C.Nov. 8,
2 A.D.August 4,
3 A.D.The two eclipses that are highlighted in bold lettering are the main ones that we will study. The eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C., is the wrong one, as we saw earlier. We can prove conclusively that the eclipse that coincided with the deposition of the high priest, Matthias, occurred on January 9, 1 B.C. Herod then died the end of January. This means that Jesus was born the previous autumn at the Feast of Trumpets, September 29, 2 B.C.Herod, Age 70, Died in 1 B.C.Josephus tells us that Herod was about 70 years of age when he died, for Josephus tells us in Antiquities of the Jews, XVII, vi, 1,And as he despaired of recovering (for he was about the seventieth year of his age), he grew fierce and indulged the bitterest anger upon all occasions.Again, Josephus confirms this in another book, Wars of the Jews, I, xxxiii, 1, where he writes about this same topic,Now Herod’s distemper became more and more severe; and this because his disorders fell upon him in his old age, and when he was in a melancholy condition. For he was almost seventy years of age.Josephus also tells us that Herod was 25 years old in 47 B.C. when his father appointed him governor of Galilee. (See Antiquities of the Jews, XIV, ix, 2, with footnote.) If king Herod was 25 years old in the year 47-46 B.C., then he was 70 during the year 2-1 B.C. So we must find an eclipse that occurred in 2 or 1 B.C. to determine the time of his death. In our listing, we find there are only two possibilities: one on July 17, 2 B.C., and another on January 9, 1 B.C.This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-16-2005 13:07 AM

Coragyps, B.C. grows in the other direction, its believed King Herod the Great died 1 B.C. & Jesus was born 2 B.C.