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Author Topic:   how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?
lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 151 of 302 (179574)
01-22-2005 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
01-22-2005 6:48 AM


Re: An aside related to Santa Clause.
What is the "fundamental" truth about Christmas?
Not sure what you mean by "fundamental" or truth. Christmas is a Christian Mass celebrated close to the winter solstice chosen to be the birthdate of Jesus, though the stories from the surviving gospels would indicate his birth was not placed at this time of year.
The winter solstice in the northern hemisphere is the longest night of the year following which the days lengthen towards summer and the prime growing season. This seasonal significance has been celebrate by many cultures in many symbolic ways.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 6:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 152 of 302 (179577)
01-22-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by lfen
01-22-2005 7:10 AM


Re: An aside related to Santa Clause.
So you are saying that Christmas..religious or otherwise..is only fundamental to those who celebrate it, correct? Logical answer!
I suppose that one could teach their children about the spirit of giving at any time during the year. Mass materialism is not necessarily a good example.
That again also sums up the fact that there is no fundamental truth within a relativistic mindset, aside from belief in oneself.
Well, it beats a theocracy!
Realistically, humanity is not ready for a theocracy, nor need they be unless and until humanity is collectively convinced of a need for such a system. Having the awareness of a personal God that is a unifying relative to all would help convince many. Others would still exercise the individual right to believe in themselves more than in common union. (communion)
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-22-2005 05:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by lfen, posted 01-22-2005 7:10 AM lfen has not replied

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CK
Member (Idle past 4157 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 153 of 302 (179579)
01-22-2005 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
01-22-2005 7:30 AM


Re: An aside related to Santa Clause.
Sounds about right - for many people (me included) Christmas has been co-opted as a secular holiday for having a good time.

This message is a reply to:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5192 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 154 of 302 (179582)
01-22-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by CK
01-22-2005 7:33 AM


Re: An aside related to Santa Clause.
Which is fair enough I guess as the Christians had borrowed it off the pagans in the first place.
Personally, I don’t have any charismas decorations up in my house at that time of year and only do anything Christmassy if I’m visiting relatives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by CK, posted 01-22-2005 7:33 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 155 of 302 (179589)
01-22-2005 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by ohnhai
01-22-2005 8:17 AM


Re: An aside related to Santa Clause.
Which is fair enough I guess as the Christians had borrowed it off the pagans in the first place.
And then the Capitalist co-opted it and made it a celebration to lift sales to higher and higher levels as we celebrate the economic power of modern capitalism to create incredible amounts of advertising and shiny or smelly or glittery goods to be partially recycled in an orgy of conspicuous consumption. I liked it better when it was a Christian holiday.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ohnhai, posted 01-22-2005 8:17 AM ohnhai has not replied

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4157 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 156 of 302 (179594)
01-22-2005 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by lfen
01-22-2005 8:53 AM


Re: An aside related to Santa Clause.
Hey nobody FORCES you to spend vast amounts of money - I don't.
Anyway it doesn't seem to be working in the UK, Sales were the worst in 20 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by lfen, posted 01-22-2005 8:53 AM lfen has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5192 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 157 of 302 (179595)
01-22-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by riVeRraT
01-20-2005 8:04 AM


Re: Truth again
OK so its IS the truth. PROVE IT.
Any scientist who made such a claim with out solid empirical proof would have the entire Scientific community run him out of town tarred and feathered.
And I don’t want to hear and back door preaching like this is the truth you seek or Look in your heart or one day you will realise or the truth resides within you none of that is any kind of proof. And frankly it’s not conducive to good discussion, but sadly this kind of thing is happening more on these forums. It gets in the way and only shows you have run out of ideas or simply can’t prove your claims so you fall back on hollow rhetoric and preaching.
Also quoting scripture at me is not a valid proof, as you can not prove the claims of a book by citing that book. Show me strong empirical evidence proving your truth to be truth, without resorting to quotes from any religious text.
Also pointing out errors in the theory of evolution doesn’t prove your truth, it just demonstrates problems with the theory of evolution, and thats it. Just because it has problems as a theory doesn’t validate your views. This goes for any theory that stands against the teachings of the bible. Proving them wrong only proves them wrong , it don’t prove you right.
As I said if you are so convinced you have the truth, the one the only truth, PROVE IT. Show us all, here and now, irrefutable evidence that proves you to be right. You must be able to as you so clearly know it to be true. Please show us.
If you can’t or are unwilling to do so then also do us the courtesy of not claiming your beliefs to be THE truth
--Edit-- Fixed a spelling error --
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-22-2005 18:21 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 01-20-2005 8:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Brad McFall, posted 01-22-2005 9:13 AM ohnhai has not replied
 Message 159 by riVeRraT, posted 01-22-2005 11:56 AM ohnhai has replied

Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 158 of 302 (179596)
01-22-2005 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ohnhai
01-22-2005 9:09 AM


Re: Truth again
THE THEORY of evolution , in thruth, validated my own view, it was the evolutionists, as humans, who did not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ohnhai, posted 01-22-2005 9:09 AM ohnhai has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 159 of 302 (179645)
01-22-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ohnhai
01-22-2005 9:09 AM


Re: Truth again
OK so its IS the truth. PROVE IT.
You are not listening. The truth is inside you, seek it and you will find it. You are a smart person, and you will not be decieved.
I do not need to prove it to you. You need to go and find it. I can only share with you what I know. It is what I found. If you think I am a dumb person, then do not take my advice. The bible cleary tells us where the truth is. In order for you to prove it right or wrong, you have to seek it, it is the only way to find it.
You can start by following the bible's directions. If the bible is wrong, then you will know it is wrong because of your wisdom. If it is true, then the truth will be known.
I have to stop and laugh here,
You guys of science want everything proven, except when it comes to science, theories will do just fine.
If you can’t or are unwilling to do so then also do us the courtesy of not claiming your beliefs to be THE truth
You still are not listening, the truth is the truth, you either know it or you don't. There is no need for me to prove it to you, you are the one seeking. I can help you find it, by sharing what I went through, and if it is relative to you, it will help. I can also pray for you, which I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ohnhai, posted 01-22-2005 9:09 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ohnhai, posted 01-22-2005 6:26 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 178 by nator, posted 01-23-2005 10:11 AM riVeRraT has replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5192 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 160 of 302 (179745)
01-22-2005 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by riVeRraT
01-22-2005 11:56 AM


Re: Truth again
Science would like to have everything proved 100%, and when it can it will. But often things can’t be proved one way or the other with 100% confidence in that proof, so it remains a theory. In other words we say this is what we believe is happening to the best of our understanding and knowledge, but as we can’t give proof right now we are not gonna say that this is the 100% truth of what is happening with out that proof. If a scientist made a claim to have proved something beyond doubt he better have damn good results and good experimental practice cause he will be asked to prove that claim to be 100% true.
Like the YEC scientist who made the claim that C (the speed of light) had decayed and published that result in a paper. The scientific community turned round and heavily scrutinised these results and the scientist’s methods and so on. In the end it was concluded that he had been using questionable methods to study the set of data he was using and it was even suggested that he deliberately misrepresented the data to help support his conclusion of a young earth. Had the peer examination upheld his results you can be certain it would have been BIG news. Had the results been valid then the ramifications would have been Huge. But the results were so flawed and so discredited that even the ICR distanced it self from the results and the scientist.
This is why when religions claim their doctrine is THE truth, that scientists insist on the religion proving those claims. If science can not get away with claming something to be true with out proving it to be true then why should religion?
OK we’ll go a different route. What is the truth that is inside me? And also tell me why you believe it to be true.
-- Edit-- Changed the direction of post --
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-22-2005 18:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by riVeRraT, posted 01-22-2005 11:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by riVeRraT, posted 01-22-2005 10:22 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 01-23-2005 2:08 AM ohnhai has replied
 Message 180 by nator, posted 01-23-2005 10:22 AM ohnhai has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 161 of 302 (179809)
01-22-2005 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ohnhai
01-22-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Truth again
Thank you for the eloquent, but unneccesary explaination of why science doesn't prove anything.
I love science, but I accept it for what it is. I use it everyday, and I am grateful for it, but it won't get me into heaven, or will it show me the truth.
What is the truth that is inside me? And also tell me why you believe it to be true.
Well, then you need to start on a journey to find the truth. I will be here as long as you need to ask me questions. Heck I'd even give you my phone # and we could chat about it.
It took me 14 years to find it, and 5 years after I accepted Christ into my life (I am just as stubborn if not more than most people).
The bible is the guide to finding the truth. If you learn it from the wrong source, or do not take the time to understand the whole thing, and then make the comparison to real life, then you are short changing yourself, and will never have all the pieces of the puzzle, to see the final picture.
Finding the truth is never really a wait and see kind of thing. God makes us some promises through his Holy Spirit inspired word of the bible, and he keeps them. All we have to to is our part.
Finding the truth means to be completely honest with yourself and God, for he knows your heart, I do not. We all fall short of the glory of God, but it's the effort that counts.
Like I said, I do not know your heart, or what you do in life, but you may have to change a few things about yourself to clear the path for the Holy Spirit to enter your life. I am not saying this in a convicting way, as I am like you. We are on the same level.
The Holy Spirit is the truth, and our guide in life. It is Jesus's gift to us, and he sent him after he left the second time. All we need to do is seek it. This can take some time, or not, but hey all great things in life take some time to achieve.
Now the Holy Spirit is already in all of us, but is like a sleeping giant. The Holy Spirit is the one who convists you when you are doing wrong. So if you feel you are doing something wrong, there is no need to justify it, God sees it, you feel it, and it is keeping you from God. He doesn't want us to do wrong things. It can be what seems to be the stupidest little things too.
You seem like a nice person, and so did I. But I just did some stupid things to myself, not even to others, that kept me from God.
I'll stop here for questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ohnhai, posted 01-22-2005 6:26 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2005 10:30 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 163 by jar, posted 01-22-2005 10:36 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 168 by ohnhai, posted 01-23-2005 7:40 AM riVeRraT has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 162 of 302 (179811)
01-22-2005 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by riVeRraT
01-22-2005 10:22 PM


Re: Truth again
riVeRrat
The bible is the guide to finding the truth. If you learn it from the wrong source, or do not take the time to understand the whole thing, and then make the comparison to real life, then you are short changing yourself, and will never have all the pieces of the puzzle, to see the final picture.
Oh I see. Only the bible has the truth eh? So there is no way you could be wrong in your assertion right? What is it you assume that makes such things correct?Perhaps it has truth in your opinion that another would find untrue,thus it is only your determination to have it so that makes it so for you.
What if you have merely deluded yourself and are wrong in your assesment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by riVeRraT, posted 01-22-2005 10:22 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by riVeRraT, posted 01-23-2005 9:51 AM sidelined has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 302 (179812)
01-22-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by riVeRraT
01-22-2005 10:22 PM


I think you may have misunderstood the question.
The question is "how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?"
Now you may think that Christianity has the answer or the truth. But what you need to show is
  1. why you think one religion can claim to be true?
  2. why you think your choice can claim to be true?
  3. why you think any other religion can not make such claims?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by riVeRraT, posted 01-22-2005 10:22 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by riVeRraT, posted 01-23-2005 9:56 AM jar has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 164 of 302 (179838)
01-23-2005 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by ohnhai
01-22-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Truth again
Hey, Ohnhai! You ask "what is the truth inside you?" We can start with the discussion of what truth is. I took the liberty to copy a rather good argument on the differences between absolute truth and moral relativism, copied here: (Let me know what you all think)
Andy Boenau writes:
MORAL RELATIVISM
The most crucial component to the debate is moral relativism. Sadly, it is also the component that is quickly dismissed. To establish an argument involving moral relativism requires one to make an absolute statement of belief, which in itself conflicts with the notion of relativism. Relative and Absolute do not associate with each other. Let me introduce two of my imaginary friends: Bill, the moral relativist, and Bob, the moral absolutist.
Bill cannot logically insist that Bob’s moral beliefs are too strict, or outdated, or intolerant since Bill believes that moral standards change based on society’s feelings at any given time. His belief system defines Bob’s morals as acceptable. The idea that society’s general opinion overrides certain established morals over time is also flawed. If that held true, moral relativism would have transformed into moral absolutism and therefore torn apart the fabric of the space-time continuum.
Moral relativism requires the believer to accept all definitions of morality throughout all time. An argument can never be made that one is superior to another.
Bob has an unchanging source for his morals, making them absolute. He can therefore, based on his source, argue that one set of morals is superior to another. Other absolutists may base their morals on another unchanging source, and therefore, will disagree with Bob on occasion. The Bible and the Koran are both written documents and neither is altered over time. So, a person who bases their morals absolutely on the Bible will tend to disagree with the morals of Osama bin Laden.
We have all heard the horrors that have been uncovered with the removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Sadaam Hussein in Iraq. Bill has no basis for complaining about torture chambers, rape rooms, and the general dismissal of women in Muslim countries. The society in Afghanistan holds to morals that most Americans find reprehensible, but based on moral relativism, Americans have no right to interfere. That idea presents a dilemma for national defense. If the morals of the terrorists onboard the planes on September 11th are to be held as acceptable, then we as a country have no right to do anything to interfere with those beliefs. Moral ideas of self-preservation or the greater good are meaningless. To say otherwise would be to attach an absolute to morals.
Bob, the moral absolutist, may not share the same beliefs as others around the globe, but he can logically argue the merits of one belief system over another. Sadly, he may only argue with other moral absolutists since absolute statements made by moral relativists are irrelevant.
Moral relativism erodes the foundation of law and will lead to anarchy. Any behavior is acceptable and welcome.
Law must be based on absolute principles. We can debate until the end of time exactly which principles it should be based on, but to base law on nothing is to have no law.
Science is not the only source of truth. Philosophy and theology have something to contribute in this hodgepodge question of rational thought.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-23-2005 00:12 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ohnhai, posted 01-22-2005 6:26 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by lfen, posted 01-23-2005 3:02 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 166 by ohnhai, posted 01-23-2005 7:27 AM Phat has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 165 of 302 (179847)
01-23-2005 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
01-23-2005 2:08 AM


Re: Truth again
Who is Andy Boenau? I find his heavy handed "philosophizing" to be thinly disguised muslim bashing. How come he doesn't include the CIA teaching torture techniques? Or the rape, murder, and torture sometimes of nuns in Guatamala? Perhaps because the right wing regimes in Latin America were set up by the CIA to protect the rich investors in America?
I don't approve of torture, etc. But Phat, that is a very disgusting piece of political propaganda that you pasted that purports to be a discussion of absolute vs. relative morality. The morality of this Boenau seems to be very biased. I find him utterly objectionable and of dubious morals and character.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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