how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?

Why? Bear with me please.You say, "Only to the satisfaction and belief of the individual." But that has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of a GOD or GODs. Correct?You asked, "That is why I asked you to tell me how many were in your heart." What could that say about the actuality of GOD or GODs?Then you went on to say, "The relevance of your answer, which you may keep to yourself, by the way, is a personal and awesome matter!"In what way? Again, what does that have to do with the existence or non-existence of a GOD or GODs?The point I've tried to make fairly consistently here is that the answer to either of those questions relates only to religion and belief systems, not to the actuality of a GOD or GODs. IMHO it is both futile and counter-productive to try to determine if "any one religion can make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth."We tend to get involved in these discussions quite regularly and IMHO it turns us away from the very things that religion and belief systems CAN do well.We need to find ways to live together, to try to make each life a little better, to help stamp out hunger, to fight disease, to oppose violence, to increase individual rights and opportunities, to increase education and knowledge. Effort that gets diverted to deciding if Brand A is better than Brand B simply decrease the available effort that could be spent on more productive endeavors.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Huh? What the hell are you dribbling on about? Where the hell do you get that from the text of mine you quote?I say believing something to be true don’t make it true, and you tell me that statement is false you are saying that if you believe something to be true it has to be true. There is no falsification of belief.That aside I believe I have the truth. You believe you have the truth, who’s truth is more valid?
Anyway while I’m at it don’t go making assumptions as to what I feel in my spirit/ soul cause I don’t have one..yes I've been up the pub tonight so I might be a tad acerbic.
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--Edit-- Ok make that on the 'drunker side of tipsy', apologies for the curt tone. --This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-20-2005 06:34 AM

So Jar...I respect your answers. Tell me Do you consider yourself a Christian relativist? I am always reading the alternative beliefs to the ones that I grew up with. For example, the basic Christian "party line" states that Truth is absolute and that Post Modern thought is destroying the culture.
I believe this, yet I was curious as to what the "post modernists" think. So I bought a book called "The Truth about the Truth: deconfusing and reconstructing the post modern world." Lots of big words and opinions. Here is a quote:"The postmodern Enlightenment project has its own concept of progress. It's not so explicit or linear, surely
not so simple--but it's there. It is really more a concept of cultural evolution, based on the belief that the whole human race is involved in a huge learning process. This process is difficult, painful, and conflicted:it can't be reduced to things simply getting better. The postmodern Enlightenment project involves learning about learning, discovering something new about our own reality.So, as it turns out, we have not one Enlightenment project, but three: a Western one based on rational thought, an Eastern one based on seeing through the illusion of the Self, and a postmodern one based on the concept of socially constructed reality.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau made the famous revolutionary pronouncement that men are born free, and everywhere they are in chains. A couple of centuries later that still holds truth for us, but now we see that the strongest chains are symbolic ones, mind forged manacles."This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-19-2005 23:47 AM

That is what I think. All gods exist as creations of thought the same way that Donald Duck exists, or Hamlet, which is the same way we exist, not the human body but the human self, the ego is also an idea, a thought, something we have imagined from our behaviour.lfen

A slightly more considered reply this time. Where does my statement describe truth?
It merely states that that simply believing something to be true, is not an indicator to the actual truthfulness of what you believe. You could believe that jackalopes exist ,but that don’t make it true. If something is true it ‘corresponds to fact or reality’ [Encarta Dictionary: English(uk)] If you Believe something to be true that doesn’t correspond with fact or reality, your belief in it doesn’t change that. If you drop a cup on the floor and it shatters then the truth is that the cup has broken. You can believe with all your heart and mind that the cup is still whole and undamaged but that does not change the fact that it is sitting at your feet in bits.You are right, something is either true or it isn’t. Provable or Falsifiable. You can prove it to be true or disprove it, through empirical evidence, belief has nothing to do with determining truth.Now as there is no quantifiable evidence to prove god either way, other than deeply held beliefs in both camps, then asserting truth in either direction is simply belief, rhetoric and dogma and not ‘truth’. If ‘truth’ can not be asserted either way, due to lack of evidence then it’s just a matter of belief and in that case why is any one belief more valid than the next?

It's fine, but think about what I said.
I'm telling you its not believing in the truth, it is the truth.
This is the truth you seek.

Yep, all I can say is you can believe something is true, and then you can know something is true.

Topic: how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?Lets break down the topic statement, shall we?
4 words...religion, valid, fundamental, and truth. I'll throw in "empirical as it is often used to validate truth claims. religion \ri-"li-jn\ n 1 : the service and worship of God or the supernatural 2 : devotion to a religious faith 3 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious beliefs, attitudes, and practices 4 : a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor religionist n
valid \"va-ld\ adj 1 : having legal force 2 : founded on truth or fact : capable of being justified or defended : sound <~ reasons> validity \v-"li-d-t\ n validly adv
fundamental \'fn-d-"ment-l\ adj 1 : serving as an origin : primary 2 : basic, essential 3 : radical <~ change> 4 : of central importance : principal fundamental n fundamentally adv
truth \"trth\ n, pl truths \"trthz, "trths\ 1 : truthfulness, honesty 2 : the real state of things : fact 3 : the body of real events or facts : actuality 4 : a true or accepted statement or proposition 5 : agreement with fact or reality : correctness syn veracity, verity

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empirical \im-"pir-i-kl\ also empiric \-ik\ adj : based on observation; also : subject to verification by observation or experiment <~ laws> empirically \-i-k(-)l\ adv

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The reason that the truth behind a personal Creator and a supernatural reality is so hard if not impossible to verify is because the experiment involves human reasoning and behavior itself. We do not live in a modern world so much as we live in a postmodern world. Christian belief is distinctive and narrow minded. Many so called Christians have not lived up to the standards of morality that the Gospel suggests. This fact can be explained, although by no means justified, by the very belief of an absolute good and evil. The knowledge of "good and evil" is a relativistic freethought mentality which is itself an absolute. It is absolute in its denial of a personal God who lives within us.

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The Spirit and the exclusive truth of this personal God is thought of and viewed as arrogant, pompous, and hypocritical by the relativistic freethought mentality of the majority.

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From our point of view, (fundamental Christianity) the box is the universe and only God is above even this box. For this reason, many fundamentalists think that they have the go ahead to legislate morality. They do not realize that God is in control and also loves Democrats! From the relativists point of view, each individual constructs a box based on human wisdom, culture, and indoctorination. Not having experienced a "personal verifiable encounter with God, a relativist sees that only science and logic can define the "out of box" view. Again, from a fundamental point of view, your vantage point "outside of the box" is the place that God belongs and not human wisdom. That is why our concept of morality is so absolute, although as fallible humans we are no better at living it than are the relativists!

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Perhaps some day, all fundamental religion will be outlawed on the planet and people will be forced to agree on human wisdom as the definer and source of morality. Oddly, the Christian wingnuts have
seen this reality in the "Left Behind" message of the Rapture of the Church. Even if we (as believers) were right,and even if the Bible were somehow correct, I believe that a world free from fundamental religion is destined to become a reality some day.

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As a Believer, I must warn you: Don't expect abolishment of the fundamentals, (origin of thought) to improve humanity. Be wise and be agnostic. You may find that the origin...the fundamental truth..will be needed some day!

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This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-20-2005 06:54 AM

Thank you for a splendid post. It is a good solid defendable answer to my question. Cool, exactly what I was hoping for. I don’t feel inclined to argue against any position in it. However it does dip into other topics such as does the church have the right to have it’s morals enshrined in national legislation which has been covered in other threads I do believe .And your last point touches on another thought that has been running round in my head for a while?on the whole has religion had a positive or negative effect on humanity? Would the world be a better place now if religion had not happened? I’ve always wondered what a world without god would have been like. For starters what would the year be if there had never been any religion?If any one thinks this is a worthwhile topic I’ll start a new one.Anyway With Phatboy’s last post I’m happy that the question has been answed.

Nope, just a Christian.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

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Even as a kid, I knew that Santa was make believe. Santa never felt real in a personal sense. I suppose that some kids are so deluded, however.

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I totally believed that Santa Claus was a real, magical person that left presents under the tree when I was a amall child.My parents told me that he was real, and the cookies I left for him were always eaten, and the carrot for Rudolph, too. All that was left were crumbs and the end of the carrot (both eaten by my grandfather, I lare learned).I can distinctly remember trying really hard to stay awake so I could hear the reindeer and sleigh on the roof.

quote:

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Jackalopes don’t exist and thus have no relevance to the ecosystem, despite featuring in many stories, web pages and now brilliant animation by Pixar.

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Bound, bound, bound!!!

When my daughter was in the second grade or so she began having real doubts about Santa. Other kids at school told her he wasn't real and that parents brought all the presents.That year the one thing she wanted most was a BIG KIDS bike. The little pink and white Barbie Bike simply wouldn't do anymore. She was too grown up.We were heading north to spend Christmas with family. We packed the car and since she was a big girl, I sent her back to make sure all the lights were out, everything turned off, to bring all the presents out from under the tree so we'd have them with us Christmas morning and that the doors were locked. Like the big girl she was she hauled out every package except one that was too heavy to lift, checked every light, the stove, the tv, the back doors and reported when all was done. I sent her back with the key to lock the front door and check it so no one could get in and then off we went.Christmas morning dawned and there was the usual rush for presents. She got her share and maybe a few more, but there were no presents for her from Santa. And no BIG KIDS BIKE.Eventually, we found a note addressed to her on the mantle. It said: Well, the rest of the visit couldn't end soon enough. When we pulled up in the driveway she was out of the car before we fully stopped. She ran to the door and peaked in the sidepane. There were some packages under the tree, the tree she had inspected herself, and a bright, new Schwinn 21,000 speed BIG KIDS BIKE.After that the other kids had a very hard time convincing her that there was no Santa Claus.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That’s cool.There is a web site you can go to ( not sure of the address but I think it’s run by the UK post office or some thing) and basically you fill in this form with the details of your child and a few days later this letter duly arrives from Santa, detailing things like her best friend the girl she don’t like (unlikely to get any presents you see) and the colour of the front door and so on. You also include the details of the present you HAVE bought them that they have been bugging you all year for. But the best bit is it remembers if you have used the service before and modifies the letter according ly.No sorry the TRULY best bit is the letter carries the north pole post mark..Any way I think it sweet specially when they get the thing they wanted and that santa mentioned it in his letter.

1) Nice. The logical mind would ask you who you slipped a key to to put the presents in the house.
The spiritual mind would say that the "Spirit of Santa" is one of believing in the love of giving and, if presented correctly to a child will never be feared. Did your little girl grow up and tell her kid/s about "Santa" or did she have other parables of love to teach them at the Holidays?As an aside, how many are in favor of giving young children the materialist toys that they ask for?Also, what message do humanist/atheist parents teach their kids?
Is Santa kosher for them? How about the evil Bush who stole Christmas?What is the "fundamental" truth about Christmas?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-22-2005 04:53 AM